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  #61  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:12 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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No, the argument is not that black people are taller than white people. I am not sure where to go with this arugment If you saying that athletic ability is all a product of hard work and not biology.

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I'm not saying that athletic ability isn't the product of biology; just that, I've seen no biological evidence to suggest that black people have more athletic ability than do whites, short of exactly what Grey cited -- people from historically warm weather climates have longer appendages and are built less stoutly to survive warmer temperatures, whereas people from colder climates developed shorter, stockier bodiers to survive cold weather.

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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?

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No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons.

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Are you saying that there simply wasn't one white guy in the entire country who worked hard at being a good CB?

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I'm sure there are plenty of white CBs who worked hard at being good. So no, I'm not saying that.

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.

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Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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There are certain athletic abilities that you are born with, and cannot be improved by a significant amount. Are you aware of one person who cound't jump a lick when they were 16, then they practiced for a few years and as a result, they could do windmill dunks?

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I'm not aware of anyone who can do a windmill dunk that isn't playing basketball at a high level. So to answer your question, I don't know anyone who DOES jump extremely high, plays basketball regularly, and CAN do a windmill dunk -- except for professionals.

I'm not a personal trainer, but I'm somewhat certain that the vertical leap is a skill that can improved with training.
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  #62  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:27 PM
JackWhite JackWhite is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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I have a hard time believing that an educated person believes that the reason that some people can jump 4 feet off the ground is simply because they practiced a lot.



Why do you have a hard time believing that?

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Because I have never heard of anybody who couldn't jump a lick, then through practicing, starting jumping 4 feet off the ground.



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Since you are saying that hard work is main factor in determining who becomes a great athlete, what is your explaination for the previous stat I mentioned: 64 out of 64 NFL starting cornerbacks are black. Do white players simply not work hard enough?



No. As Grey mentioned, there could be many reasons

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Please give me some of these reasons. NFL and major college football coaches keep their jobs by winning. They obviously want the best players on the field. The reason that all major college and NFL cornerbacks are black is because the coaches think they are the best. I am guessing you agree that these coaches don't discriminate against white cornerbacks. So if it not discrimination, I would like a few of these reasons why there are no white cornerbacks..not to mention no NFL team has a starting white tailback. In fact, the last good white tailback I can remember was John Riggins, and that was about 20 years ago.

So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.
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  #63  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:31 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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So combine cornerbacks and starting tailbacks in the NFL. That is around 100 guys. If I am not mistaken, they are all black. I would like to hear the non-biology explaination for that.

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Sure:

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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  #64  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:42 PM
JackWhite JackWhite is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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But that is not enough to explain the prominence of dark-skinned athletes in the U.S. Culture is the main cause there. Again, notice how many European whites are coming over here to play basketball (and all from poor countries). If playing sports professionally weren't such a long-odds gamble you'd see a lot more whites in the pros. There are whites out there in board rooms and running family businesses who could have been NBA all-stars if they'd dedicated their lives to it from a young age, like many blacks in America do. Look at Tiger Woods. You think he's genetically superior to every other person on earth when it comes to golf? No way. He was trained rigorously from a very, very young age to play golf. The same happens for more blacks in America than whites- their place in society gives them more drive to achieve athletic success.

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?
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  #65  
Old 12-19-2005, 02:55 PM
DVaut1 DVaut1 is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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Yes, the Bill Gates could have been an NBA star if he had dedicated himself to it explaination. You really believe that a lot of corporate executives could play in the NBA if they worked at it?

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Not necessarily corporate executives; and I suppose it's a cute way to frame it (choosing the notoriously scrawny/nerdy looking Gates as an example of your typical executive).

But sure, there are, of course, some people in all walks of life who could have been professional athletes had they dedicated themselves. Basketball is a bit of an outlier, as most people of average height are at a great disadvantage to those who are taller.

What Grey is arguing (and I agree with) is that young black people have a stronger impetus to dedicate themselves to athletics than do white people -- again, for reasons that I think are many and varied.

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As I pointed out in a previous response, there are places in this country where football is king. If you are good at football you are a God. The kids in those places (overwhelmingly white communities) work year around at football. They have as much desire to play in the NFL as anybody can have, yet they don't make it. Why not, if all it takes is desire and work?

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential have been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

Also, an intense community focus on football doesn't necessarily mean the kids are playing, practicing, or training any harder than kids where high school football isn't at the heart of the community.

Secondly, Friday Night Lights also detailed (quite clearly, in my mind) that urban areas in Texas (downtown Dallas, for instance) are quite full of school districts that have large minority (in many cases, overwhelming minority) populations that have the same kind of intense focus on high school football as the more rural communities of Texas do (like Odessa).
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  #66  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:05 PM
JackWhite JackWhite is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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If Friday Night Lights (the book, not the movie) is any indication, top notch college programs will tend to shy away from recruiting kids from the 'Football is God' type communities because they feel those kids' potential has been fully-tapped; as there is so much focus on football, and the coaching standards are inevitably higher, many college coaches feel those kids are already playing at their highest possible level and have nothing more to offer than what they're currently displaying.

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Exactly. You are correct. The reason college coaches shy away from these kids is because they are as good as they are ever going to be at this stage. Why? Because they generally lack overall atheltic ability. They are good now because of hard work, and that can only take you so far. To use a sports term, they have reached their "ceiling."
That is why the coaches go to black areas and find kids who haven't reached their ceiling yet.

This whole argument reminds me of a funny scene from the movie "Airplane." When Ted Striker is telling the story of his days in the Peace Corps in Africa, he mentions how he taught the natives to play basketball. Then they show these guys doing acrobatic dunks etc... and Striker credits this to "advanced American teaching techniques." If you and Grey are correct, Striker was correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #67  
Old 12-19-2005, 03:07 PM
NobodysFreak NobodysFreak is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

I just want to jump in here about the vertical leap thing. I have a friend who's 5 feet 9 inches and can dunk a basketball. The proportion of your arm lenghts (a little less than half half your body height for the average person) in addition to your body height give taller people a significant advantage in being able to dunk a basketball. However, there is much to be said about the proportion of your vertical leap to your body height. A person who's six feet six inches tall has a much easier time with dunking a basketball but their legs don't need to be as proportionally strong to acheive this feat.

Conclusion: Just raise the damn hoop to 12 feet so you have to practice things like shooting which requires much more training
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  #68  
Old 12-20-2005, 07:46 AM
Overdrive Overdrive is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

The truth is out there, if you can handle the truth that is:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton
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  #69  
Old 12-20-2005, 03:48 PM
CORed CORed is offline
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

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For example, Eastern native Americans had lighter skin than Western Native Americans.

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That really doesn't surprise me. Lattitude isn't the only factor affecting sun exposure. Altitude and climate are important factors. Western North America generally has drier climate (fewer cloudy days) and higher altitude than eastern North America (except for coastal regions). I know I would never have survied in Colorado with my fish-belly white northern European skin without clothing and sunscreen. I would probably have died of infected third degree sunburn. Also, I think temperature may be a factor. In cold climates, people have to wear clothing or furs to keep warm, and aren't exposing much skin to the sun. In warm climates, they can go naked, or nearly so.
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  #70  
Old 12-20-2005, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

As I stated earlier in this thread, dont compare blacks to whites, to much baggage associated with race that could easily dissway a very valid question, discussion. Instead compare blacks to asians, and with a straight face say that blacks are not athletically, physic8lly superior to Asians. If your argument is that the reason American sports are dominated by blacks is because they work harder then their white counterparts, then thats absurd and I dare anyone to suggest the opposite is true in the corporate world..you might be handed your walking papers. Go to any playground, the number of 5'9'' black guys that can dunk a basket ball compared to white, asians of that size isnt even close.

Ill do you one better, pick the top colleges in America, blind fold yourself and throw a dart at said schools...and then look at the track and field athletes and get back to me...I find it amazing that a country of over 1 billion(China) doesnt dominate the track and field world, especially considering we all know how dedicated the chinese are when pursing something of value and the Gold metal holds alot of weight over there. The problem here is that many people(with tears streaming down their cheeks, wanting, believeing that we are in fact all the same) are not believeing whats right in front of them. yes our similarities are far far greater then our differences...but there are differences.
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