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  #11  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:06 AM
irishpint irishpint is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

this is such an easy call pf for me getting 9.5:1 (after UTG and MP call, which they almost always do). even the chance of a LRR, like here, doens't scare me at all. I'd be tempted to play any 2 cards getting those odds.
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:07 AM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the flop check - what's its purpose? Are you trying to build a bigger pot or trying to win this already humungoid pot? (For all you know utg limped a mway hand and 3-bet pf to maximize implieds and pairing 2's could beat it.)

IMM you should not be trying to tie 4 others to the pot - you should be trying to win it because it was already huge...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the preflop call was marginal, but I made it, and I'd make it again at an unknown 6max table. 'nuff said.

On the flop I was going for building the pot with the anticipated agressor to my immediate left. The worst possible play would be to bet and have UTG blow everybody else out leaving me with no value. I have 15 outs, only 3 of which I'd even consider discounting (the 3 non-spade 9s)! I want every single one of those effers tied to the pot, as the chances are very good that at least 2 of them are contributing dead money.

Also, with 2 preflop aggressors, my chances of winning this huge pot without showing down the best hand is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero, if not less than that.
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  #13  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:16 AM
tinhat tinhat is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

IMM you should not be trying to tie 4 others to the pot - you should be trying to win it because it was already huge...

[/ QUOTE ]
i was just wondering if you happened to look at boz's cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

co raises Axx; utg 3-bets a now-big field w/J9s; do I really need to look at his hand to know that 2's have won these before?

Or is what you're saying a better hand has never folded so go ahead and make sure you're up against the entire field to the very end?

Mike
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  #14  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:21 AM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

are you serious about trying to clear up our pair outs here?
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:26 AM
tinhat tinhat is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the flop check - what's its purpose? Are you trying to build a bigger pot or trying to win this already humungoid pot? (For all you know utg limped a mway hand and 3-bet pf to maximize implieds and pairing 2's could beat it.)

IMM you should not be trying to tie 4 others to the pot - you should be trying to win it because it was already huge...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the preflop call was marginal, but I made it, and I'd make it again at an unknown 6max table. 'nuff said.

On the flop I was going for building the pot with the anticipated agressor to my immediate left. The worst possible play would be to bet and have UTG blow everybody else out leaving me with no value. I have 15 outs, only 3 of which I'd even consider discounting (the 3 non-spade 9s)! I want every single one of those effers tied to the pot, as the chances are very good that at least 2 of them are contributing dead money.

Also, with 2 preflop aggressors, my chances of winning this huge pot without showing down the best hand is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero, if not less than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems fairly sensible; but you said you had 10 hands w/them (IIRC) so really you have no idea what your worst outs are (IMO).

When I see large flop pots I think of sshe/hepfap; "large pots" pg 148 sshe #2: "Sieze opportunities to knock out players..." So when I saw 16sb and a c-r on the field, it didn't seem like trying to knock anybody out.

I understand your rationale; and the way it played out is pretty cool. I'm just wondering, technically, what's "correct" here...

Mike
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2005, 03:30 AM
milesdyson milesdyson is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

yeah you should try to win pots fast, but you can't win this pot without improving. so we keep everyone in to basically pad the pot for our draw.
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2005, 11:03 AM
bozlax bozlax is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

[ QUOTE ]
This seems fairly sensible; but you said you had 10 hands w/them (IIRC) so really you have no idea what your worst outs are (IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I do. 95% of the time a two-card flush (i.e. a flush that uses both of your hole cards) is going to be good, so until that third [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falls and somebody's still going hard at the pot, I'm figuring all 9 spades in the deck to be good for me. I suppose I over-stated the worrying about the 9 falling...if it falls and makes my hand, I'm still losing to AJ, which I'd be losing to on the flop, so I guess all 8 9s and aces should be counted as good, too, so in reality I have 17 clean outs, here, until one of them falls and somebody is still hitting me hard (if the ace falls, of course, I'm not slowing down).

[ QUOTE ]
When I see large flop pots I think of sshe/hepfap; "large pots" pg 148 sshe #2: "Sieze opportunities to knock out players..." So when I saw 16sb and a c-r on the field, it didn't seem like trying to knock anybody out.

I understand your rationale; and the way it played out is pretty cool. I'm just wondering, technically, what's "correct" here...

[/ QUOTE ]

What's "correct", of course, depends.[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] However, with this big a pot and this number of players at this limit, you're not going to be able to knock anybody out most of the time, so instead you go for building the biggest pot possible with a couple of strong draws and hope that (a) you make your hand, and (b) it holds up.
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2005, 11:08 AM
jba jba is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

a suited jack is definitely playable in a five handed pot against any raise let alone a poster raise

I'm surprised there is any debate about this.


OP: nice hand, I like everything you did here
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2005, 12:47 PM
JerseyTom JerseyTom is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I never would've called the first raise; you only have one thing going for this hand and IMM is a marginal mway hand to begin with. Would be interesting to know how many times you could play J2s even @ 6:1 and make any money.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm ususally folding this preflop as well, but I may be a bit too tight out of the blinds. I think this hand only has value for making a flush value and the occasional one card straight that you'll often have to pay many bets to miss (with 2 PF aggressors and a Broadway-ish board)

[ QUOTE ]

I don't get the flop check - what's its purpose? Are you trying to build a bigger pot or trying to win this already humungoid pot? (For all you know utg limped a mway hand and 3-bet pf to maximize implieds and pairing 2's could beat it.)

IMM you should not be trying to tie 4 others to the pot - you should be trying to win it because it was already huge...

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Others have already said this, but hero has exactly 0% chance of winning this without completeing his (fairly strong) draw, so the flop C/R for value is perfect IMO. Build a monster.


Tom
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2005, 02:03 PM
The_Curtain The_Curtain is offline
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Default Re: Need a line check in the BB

You have 3 oppenents that will call and you are 55% to make your hand by the river. Cap the flop for value.

The only fear is that someone else has made a set (The UTG limp reraise means AA, KK or more likely some type of crap)
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