So what's the consensus on this river? (flush)

[JDErickson]

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Fold the flop (why did you call?).

Rob

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Before I tell you (and you proceed to mock me mercilessly) would you do me a favor? Look in your Misc. Stats and tell me your net amount for three of a kind, straights, and flushes. Uncheck "Show Only Hands That Were Not Folded". I'm curious how we compare there.

If anybody else wants to post their stats on those I would appreciate that too.

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why?

There is no explanation you can give that justifies this flop call.

[grjr]

Nevermind then.

[grjr]

For the record I don't think going for overcalls would have been a good idea here.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 26.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB has Kc Ts (straight, ace high).
MP2 has Js Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
Hero has 5h Kh (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 26.50 BB. </font>

[Black Aces 518]

Wow MP2 is a complete douche to 3bet this river after a raise and then a call. He doesn't even have top two, and there are straights and flushes possible (also the A on board greatly increases the chance of a better two pair). Merry Christmas to you from him.

Also, the flop call is miserable, no matter how you look at it. If the Ace wasn't there, you might maybe look at it. You have zero overcards, zero cards that give you an OESD. Basically you're drawing to heart-heart or maybe K-K. There's no way you're good to call getting 7-1. Plus, you have 3 people behind you who could check-raise, which would be a hell of a thing putting in 2 bets on this flop (or putting one in and folding to a 3 bet.) BLECH.

And I can't believe there was support for 3 betting this turn. WTF? You have 2 outs to the nuts, the black tens. And that's a 4 card straight nuts, whee. A heart can lose to Ah-xh (which would have been in, thanks to the flopped A, and the 10d completes a flopped fourflush.

[davelin]

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For the record I don't think going for overcalls would have been a good idea here.

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Good thought. Going for overcalls on the river with the nuts is pretty useless IMO.

[chris_a]

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Good thought. Going for overcalls on the river with the nuts is pretty useless IMO.

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What does it matter whether you have the nuts? There are times when going for overcalls with the nuts is right, and times when not going for overcalls with junk two pair is right.

The more important criterion is how you can extract the most money, right? In this situation raising is clear but not because you have the nuts. It's just how you can suck the most money.

[grjr]

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Good thought. Going for overcalls on the river with the nuts is pretty useless IMO.

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What does it matter whether you have the nuts?


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(I didn't have the nuts here)

It matters because if you have the nuts you're not fearing a 3-bet from the guy that HAS the nuts.

[davelin]

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Good thought. Going for overcalls on the river with the nuts is pretty useless IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it matter whether you have the nuts? There are times when going for overcalls with the nuts is right, and times when not going for overcalls with junk two pair is right.

The more important criterion is how you can extract the most money, right? In this situation raising is clear but not because you have the nuts. It's just how you can suck the most money.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad, thought the Ace-suit was on the board. Okay, I'll say going for overcalls with a lock hand is a minority case. Going for overcalls sometimes nets you more money but more times it's about spreading out your risk than getting the most value. The nice thing about raising is that it opens the opportunity to get multiple bets in.

Eh, give me an example where going for overcalls with the nuts is right. I'll bet raising is a close decision and if it's a close decision, I'll go with the one that opens the betting again.

[Black Aces 518]

I will go for overcalls with the nuts when the bettor acted first and I am next and there are several people to act after me (meaning bare minimum of 3, probably need 5 w/o reads.) All this depends on how likely the donks after me are to call 2 cold or reraise, and how likely the initial bettor is to 3 bet if I raise. Some people won't 3 bet the river w/o the nuts, some will 3 bet with top pair on a 4 card straight and flush board.

[chris_a]

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Eh, give me an example where going for overcalls with the nuts is right.

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Ok, board is not suited and is AQJK2. You have a TT. There is a bettor and you are second to act with 4 people after you. You have the nuts. Is raising close? Don't think so. Top pair or two pair or a set will probably fold for a raise but will probably call if you just call.

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I'll bet raising is a close decision and if it's a close decision, I'll go with the one that opens the betting again.

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Opening up the betting is fine as a general rule of thumb, but is clearly wrong in this case.