Hand to Talk About

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Everyone:

I managed to get out last night and played a little $80-$160 hold 'em at The Bellagio. An interesting hand came up which I want to relate here.

First a little background. Our hero in this hand is someone who has been playing this limit for some time now, perhaps a year and a half. She clearly plays too loose and too aggressive, but did nothing but win for most of this time. However, I understand that her good luck has run out on her the past couple of months.

Here's the hand. Before the flop, six players including the blinds were in for one bet each. Our hero was second to last to act on the flop with the player on the button, who I would classify as weak loose, also active. (I had folded my hand before the flop.)

The flop came A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Everyone checked to the player on the button who bet $80. Our hero immediately check raised, even though there were three players still to act before her, and instead of putting in the required amount of $160, she put $320 in chips in front of her. It appeared that not only did she not know it wasn't her turn, but that she thought it was fourth street as well as the flop.

Needless to say it took a little bit of time to straighten this out. But the three players in front of our hero did fold, her bet was changed to $160, and the player on the button did call the raise.

Fourth street was a blank and our hero bet and was called. The river was a queen and again our hero bet and was called. She turned over a queen-ten and the player on the button took the pot with an ace.

All comments welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

Ha she pulled this trick before?

[Clarkmeister]

I'll ignore the confusion on the flop and focus on the hand.

There are certainly other lines Hero could have taken, but I don't really think this one was bad.

The flop is really the only truly interesting street: Betting vs check raising, check-folding or even, in rare circumstances, check-calling.

I don't think the turn is debatable given the flop action.

On the river I think value betting is also clearly correct.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Wow, that ch/raise out of turn and for the wrong amount is really bizarre. It makes me wonder, as andy suggested, if she is taking a shot here. The only other explanation is that she is very wired (in addition to being loose) and/or on full tilt.

I don't play that high, but it sounds like the game was pretty loose passive overall, since there are 6 people in preflop with no raise. If that was the general texture of the game, then I agree with Clark that the flop play is not bad. If she meets any resistance, she can fold before getting too deeply into the hand. I don't think continued betting is the best line vs. this button, however. Weak, loose players that call raises generally have a hand (lol).

LGPG,

Babe [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[slavic]

There are certainly other lines Hero could have taken, but I don't really think this one was bad.

Yes but her action screams shooting an angle doesn't it? The misbet out of order from a player that should know better is going to get her called down by as little as a small pocket pair heads up. Then again would she even try this unless it's worked for her before?

[J_V]

I don't like the river value bet. I also think checking (with the intent) of giving up on the turn is an option.

[andyfox]

If I suggested she was taking an angle shot, I wasn't clear: She WAS taking an angle shot. She puts in a "raise"; what's more, she's "showing" she wasn't afraid to raise on a more expensive street. Now if somebody between the bettor and her calls, she can reneg, since she acted out of turn and it's not binding.

One player between the bettor and her, OK, we've all done this. But three? And then the wrong amount? C'mon.

The button did exactly the correct thing until the river. Let her keep betting. Then raise her on the river.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the river value bet. I also think checking (with the intent) of giving up on the turn is an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the river, I don't think you will ever get the player described to bluff a second time. So checking to induce a bluff has no value. However I would expect any pair to call down. If you think that you can safely check-fold, then I'd check, but man is that rare. As far as checking to induce vs value betting, I think value betting is likely superior against a "weak loose" player.

[andyfox]

"I don't think the turn is debatable given the flop action."

Who are you talking about here? Hero or the button? If hero, I don't understand her turn bet.

[skp]

Well, I suppose what Clarkie means is that hero should bluff the turn to make the other guy lay down a pocket pair.

Hero has to figure out how she is going to play the turn as soon as her flop checkraise is called because obviously, she is then putting the other chap on an Ace or a pocket pair.

Nothing wrong with hero checkfolding on the turn but betting out is an option if she thinks that there is a fair chance that the dude will lay down a pocket pair (particularly with her flop shenanigans assuming that he doesn't properly read them as an angle shoot).

Having bet the turn and just been called, I like the river value bet when the Queen hits unless Hero can checkfold confidently. Where I part company with Clarkie is that I think that there are lots of guys against whom you can checkfold safely on the river given the texture of this flop.