9c8c blind defense at 3/6

[Aces McGee]

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Poster: soweak.
Subject: Re: Results (because people like results, not because it proves anything)

What happens if he plays back at you on the turn?



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As in raises? Like I said, I think it's fairly unlikely, but if he does, I check-fold the river unless I hit my straight.

-McGee

[Brian]

I wouldn't ever call here pre-Flop, especially against someone who is a suspected 2+2'er. Playing out of position against a good player with a marginal hand (which 98s most certainly is) isn't how you make money at these games. Because you are out of position, you are often not going to be able to get the most out of your good hands, while your opponent will be able to extract the most out of you when he has the best of it.

98s is a much bigger underdog here than most people think. While 98s is only a 2:3 underdog against two overcards, that's assuming you see all 5 cards. Are you going to ever hit that Ten when the Flop comes QJ5? Or are you going to look for a 9 or 8 when the Flop is 643?

And I know I don't have to mention how disgusting things are when you're playing a tiny pot with two undercards vs. a big pair.

I'd have played the hand exactly the same post-Flop.

-Brian

[NDHand]

Perhaps this isnt the correct line of thinking but I respect check-raises a lot more than donkbets/stop'n'gos. Only times im willing to call BS on a check-raise is if villain is very laggy or tricky.

[Aces McGee]

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Perhaps this isnt the correct line of thinking but I respect check-raises a lot more than donkbets/stop'n'gos. Only times im willing to call BS on a check-raise is if villain is very laggy or tricky

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I'll know to go for the checkraise against you then.

Seriously, though, if you look at this situation, this is a pretty suspicious time for me to go for a checkraise if I have a powerful made hand. Number one, if I have something like trip tens, it's vulnerable to the heart re-draw, so I can't risk getting it checked through. Number two, with the board pairing and the heart flush coming in, the turn is definitely a scare card, so from his perspective, I've got to think there's a decent chance it'll get checked through.

-McGee

[dark_horse]

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Perhaps this isnt the correct line of thinking but I respect check-raises a lot more than donkbets/stop'n'gos. Only times im willing to call BS on a check-raise is if villain is very laggy or tricky.

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I second this. More often than not, when villian pulls a stop'n'go on the turn and i raise him again, I don't get 3bet. He just likes his ace with bad kicker and is betting once again "for information." If I get 3bet, then I have something to think about. All situational, of course.

[chesspain]

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...it's folded to you in the BB, but the only difference is that it was raised from early position. In a heads up game someone's position doesn't give info about the nature of their raise.

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Huh???...Opponent didn't know that everyone was going to fold when he raised in EP. I think his raise means that he has a real hand.


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p.s. Sorry about my "where does it say villian is in EP" post. That was the donk post of the week (hopefully).

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I think that your more recent post with the top quote is actually more donkeyesque. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[dark_horse]

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...it's folded to you in the BB, but the only difference is that it was raised from early position. In a heads up game someone's position doesn't give info about the nature of their raise.

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Huh???...Opponent didn't know that everyone was going to fold when he raised in EP. I think his raise means that he has a real hand.

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But that's exactly what i'm saying. You must be misreading it. When someone raises from EP in a full ring, it indicates way more strength than when someone raises in a heads up game. It does indicate some strength when your opponent raises you PF from the BB in a heads up game (only two players sitting at the table, NOT folded around in a full ring), but not as much as when someone raises from EP in a full ring.

[jstewsmole]

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This seems like overly FPS. You have 9-high, and the pot isn't big on the flop -- yet. Just check and call the flop and turn (your pair outs might be as good as the straight outs), and fold the river UI.

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I think this is the best line IMO. This line is completely correct and its WAY less complicated than the others mentioned.

The bettor is going to bet like 110% of the time after hero checks the flop and if he checks behind u get a free card.

Why make this hand way more complicated then it is? U dont always have to fight fire with fire and win with out SD's unless u love more variance.

Though i think all the lines mentionded were good for the most part, i just think taking the simple +EV line if its available is better. Save the Fancy plays when the simlple stuff isnt going to get the job done.

out

[mterry]

I still can't decide whether the chosen line or the straightforward check/call line is best. However, I don't agree that a line shouldn't be taken because it is complicated. I'll take greater EV over less complicated any day.

Also, against a 2+2er there may be a need to mix things up if he/she may be picking up on your tendencies, espeically for the sake of future shorthanded battles. This may sway the argument toward or away from a more straightforward play.

[slavic]

I guess I'm a little different than most players. I "defend" with many more hands getting 3.5 to 1 in this case though it's 10 to 3 but your still not a 10 to 3 dog. As the limits go up you have to get pretty good at saving value in the blinds. The thing that changed my opinion on this was watching UB's video series with Howard Lederer and he talked about his blind defense standards.