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  #51  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:02 PM
William William is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

We have a happy ending afterall

Can you elaborate? did you get your seat?
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  #52  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:04 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

Happy ending:


I didn't contact Mike O'Malley about this, but yesterday afternoon I received this e-mail (Mike knows my real name and party-handle via a couple of PM's we've exchanged...but I've never received anything from him at my e-mail address before):



Hi Bob,
I just had one of the ITP agents talk to me about a case he is investigating. He wanted me to look at it to make sure he was interpreting everything correctly, and just to go over it and double check his work.
I asked him to send me the details and was surprised to see your name!
I haven't had a chance to look it over, but will tomorrow (it's Saturday night India time). I will let you know what I find.


------------


I told him I was very pleased to know that they were forwarding the situation onto him and that they will take such measures if something develops that somebody there might have a question on.


Today I got the full elaboration and final decision which I am mostly satisfied with.
There are a couple of issues I disagree with such as not having rules against openly discussing stalling...but I understand his point/s on this.

Note...he told me it was okay to post this on 2+2 because I had ased him after his first e-mail if he was okay with that (because of the number of 2+2'ers who had taken an interest in this little issue).



> Hi Bob,
>
> At the request of the ITP agent investigating your
> case I took a look at the emails, hand histories and
> chat logs. It is not uncommon for ITP to forward me
> cases that they feel are tricky, complicated or
> might need an alternative perspective.
>
> I will address the two situations separately.
>
>
>
> Situation #1: 'yyyyyyyyy'
>
> Hand # zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> Sat Nov 12
> 01-55-26:bbbbbb folds.
> 01-55-27:ccccccccc folds.
> 01-55-32: yyyyyyyyy: AA
> 01-55-35:yyyyyyyyy raises to 1600
> 01-55-38:ddddd folds.
> 01-55-38:eeeeeee folds.
> 01-55-39:xxxxxxxx folds.
>
> You stated "yyyyyyyy made a raise, and then while
> the other players were deciding, he announced to the
> table that he was holding AA"
> If you look at the details above you will see that
> he actually stated what he had prior to taking his
> own action. As soon as he made his raise, the
> remaining three players all folded within 4 seconds.
>
> You also stated "he didn't want anyone on his table
> to get knocked-out. After everyone folded he indeed
> showed them AA. I think it is a serious breach of
> the rules for a player to tell the table what he is
> holding so that all of his new 'friends' at the
> table can avoid being eliminated."
>
> Based on the timing of his chat and his position at
> the table (the two players that could bust him had
> yet to act) I believe that he announced his hand so
> that HE wouldn't get eliminated. During the
> following hand, player 'yyyyyyyyy' typed into the
> chat "didn't want any". I don't think he meant
> "didn't want anyone to get knocked out". I think he
> meant "didn't want anyone to call me and snap off my
> aces". Playing anything in his spot, even aces, was
> not smart. I think he couldn't fathom the thought
> of folding Aces, so he told everyone what he had
> before he even raised.
> Regardless of his intent, announcing your cards
> while the hand is still in play is considered bad
> etiquette and shouldn't happen. Unfortunately we
> have no rule that specifically prevents a person
> from announcing his hand. Personally I wish we
> could have such a rule, but with the complexity of
> online poker I don't think the rule is enforceable.
> In live tournaments a player announcing his hand can
> be dealt with at that point. Online it is
> impossible to take action during the tournament.
> With that said, I have sent an email to player
> 'yyyyyyyyy' reminding him that it is poor etiquette
> to discuss a hand while it is in play. It has also
> been noted on his account, so if he continues to do
> it then action can be taken against him.
>
> Situation #2: 'xxxxxxxx'
> This one is not so easy. I read through all of the
> hand histories and chat logs to get a gauge of
> exactly what transpired.

> From my perspective it appears that player
> 'xxxxxxxx' was actively chatting for the entire
> tournament. When the tournament got down to two
> tables there was some discussion about hand for hand
> and stalling, which resulted in the players carrying
> on about the amount of players on both tables.

> Stalling in itself is not against the rules,
> although it can be irritating and completely
> useless. Each player is allocated an amount of time
> to act and they are entitled to use it. I don't
> know if you saw any of it (I didn't as I am halfway
> across the world) but stalling can be seen to
> perfection in the recent WSOP airings. I personally
> got to call the clock on Ms. Williamson twice during
> day 5. It was annoying and aggravating, but she was
> entitled to take her time.

> Attempting to get other players to stall is not
> necessarily against the rules either as there is a
> real gray area when it comes to chat. If a player
> in this situation would have said "hey, we have 7
> players and they have 6, if I have real complicated
> decisions each hand we might take more time than
> them". Would that be considered wrong? Or what if
> a player says "let's all take our time because the
> dealer is getting tired"?

> The point I am trying to make is that even
> attempting to get other players to "group stall"
> would not be considered wrong. What I do consider
> wrong is one player aggressively, and almost at a
> frantic pace, telling everyone that they should
> stall. That is what I player 'xxxxxxxx' was doing.
>
> These cases are very difficult because of the
> sensitivity of deciphering chat, the chatters intent
> and the effect that chat might have on the play of
> the tournament. In reality the only way to prevent
> such things from happening is by turning off all of
> the chat. Recently I made the decision to turn off
> all observer chat. In the near future I am going to
> make some enhancements to that which might include
> turning off all chat when a tournament is on the
> bubble.

> In order to evaluate any penalties for player
> 'xxxxxxxxx' I first looked up the player's history.
> Without getting into details, I can tell you that
> this was the very first tournament that the account
> had played where (x) seats were given out to (x)
> event. This is important because this situation is
> most prevalent when the prize awards are all equal
> and skating into the money is as effective as
> winning. I also looked at some of the players
> previous chats and didn't find anything that would
> indicate this player has in the past resorted to
> conspiring with other players to gain this type of
> advantage.

> In conclusion, I feel that this player was really
> unaware of the consequences of actively trying to
> get the other players to stall. I don't believe
> that taking away the qualifier would be justified in
> this case. I have personally sent this player an
> email explaining why the chat was wrong and what the
> consequences will be if it happens again.

> An interesting side note: I did look to see how
> many hands Table 2 (your table) played compared to
> Table 1. From the time that the tournament
> condensed to 20 players (00:49) until the time that
> you were eliminated (01:55), Table 2 played 92 hands
> and Table 1 played 90 hands.

> The issue with the hand for hand is something I have
> noted. In the very near future I am going to be
> going over the entire formula of hand for hand and
> redoing it. There are many areas where it is not
> serving its purpose. If I had 72 hours a day I
> would be able to get many of the things done that I
> want to, but I don't so I take things one step at a
> time. You will definitely see some good changes in
> 2006.
>
> I do appreciate you taking the time to point this
> out and follow up on it. Although you weren't
> satisfied with the answer that ITP gave to you, it's
> important for us to receive such complaints because
> it does help the ITP team to better understand their
> job and how to improve.

> I have added two freerolls for the $90 CPC SPECIAL
> Qualifier to your account. With your skills this
> should equal a seat into the $800 CPC Special! J
>
> Everything that I write I am aware could be passed
> along to someone else or used on a forum. With that
> in mind, feel free to use anything in this email on
> 2+2 provided its not taken out of context.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> michael o'malley | poker room manager
> partygaming.com
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  #53  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:14 PM
4thstreetpete 4thstreetpete is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

ENJOY!
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  #54  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:21 PM
William William is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

[ QUOTE ]
ENJOY!

[/ QUOTE ]

DAMN!!! Too late... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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  #55  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:23 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

Yeah...I was going to include that in that last post.
but i forgot. Darn.
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  #56  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:29 PM
William William is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

Thanks for the long email.
It does appear Party has too many grey zones but it seems they are aware of it and trying to do something about it.

Congrats on the little compensation, even if I think it is deserved (at least) I am quite surprised you got it.

It would have been nice to know what the consequences of a repeated bad behavior could be for the player in fault, aslo to have something to refer to if something like this happens again, but I suppose that would be asking too much.

Of course, we will all be wondering if the answer would have been the same had it happenned to somebody that was not known by Mike, but that I suppose will remain a mistery. Let's this time be large and hope the answer is "yes".

Good thread, a lesson to all us that often give up when faced with the ignorance of support staff.
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  #57  
Old 11-13-2005, 05:39 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

[ QUOTE ]
we will all be wondering if the answer would have been the same had it happenned to somebody that was not known by Mike

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah. i'm not sure about that either.
I suspect it could have been roughly the same once it got to Mike.

It's not like he just looked at it and said, "I give up. Lets give him a couple entries to shut him up."

He obviously took a lot of time looking at the whole situation and composing and extremely detailed response about it. although even this could have been done for P.R. purposes because of the knowledge that I would probably copy it over here.


I think it could also party be attributed to the time I took in trying to make them aware of a couple of their problems.
1. Some of the 'off the mark' responses of their investigations team.
2. The general problems of openly discussing stalling and that their hand-for-hand format wasn't being implemented at the correct times.


We'll never know.
but again, I'm pretty satisfied...and look forward to falling short of the mark in more of their qualifiers.
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  #58  
Old 11-13-2005, 06:52 PM
FlFishOn FlFishOn is offline
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Posts: 142
Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

I'm glad you were able to squeeze Party for a few bucks. Better you than them, eh?

"but I have reported such situations before where it didn't effect me because I think it is inappropriate for players to 'team-up' and discuss stalling at the tables."

Here's the real test. Answer honestly.

Final 4 players of a regular pay structure MTT you find yourself in a three way pot. The short stack is all in pre-flop and you are chip leader along with the #2 stack still in the hand. There is no side pot and the main pot = 3 BBs. Tell me you wouldn't check it down and I'll completely reevaluate my opinion of you.

Obviously, the common practice of checking it out is collusive but accepted. I see a distinction with little difference.
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  #59  
Old 11-13-2005, 07:10 PM
MicroBob MicroBob is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

checking it down is different than openly telling your opponent "hey...you know we are supposed to check it down here, right?"


As for the situation you are describing....if I thought I could milk the other stack along for a few extra BB's while I was holding a monster then there's no way I would just check it down.

Obviously I'm going to take advantage of any opportunity to get to the river if I don't think my hand is very good....but when I get to the point where I feel my hand is 'good' (meaning, extremely likely to take out the short-stack anyway) then I'm just trying to win chips from the other guy.
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  #60  
Old 11-13-2005, 07:40 PM
FlFishOn FlFishOn is offline
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Default Re: Encouraging your table to stall in a tourney (long....as usual)

Parsing your three 'graphs here's what I get:

I'll collude quietly if that's the most +EV play I have available.

I'm OK with that.
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