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  #11  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:20 PM
reecelights reecelights is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.
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  #12  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
Good play just you bet too much, if you raise him lets say 1500, and he calls or raises you know he probably has something and has you beat badly. So next time don't bet as much but still raise. You don't have to risk all your chips in that sitauation.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes no sense.

As I see it, the objective of this bet is to force the player to make a critical decision at that point - if the guy has anything LESS than KK (maybe QQ) he would fold to that bet.

The reason why you do it with 67s is because IF you do get called, then you have more live cards in the deck to help you win your hand.

Have I got that right? (Also a newbie here)
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  #13  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:23 PM
RavenJackson RavenJackson is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I just confirm that this is basically what I said, just without covering the actual math of the situation?
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  #15  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:26 PM
DemonDeac DemonDeac is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I just confirm that this is basically what I said, just without covering the actual math of the situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty much. yes
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  #16  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:27 PM
Danny H. Danny H. is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

Well in Doyle Brunson's book he talks about this situation, about trying to catch something if a player is playing kings and aces and doesn't raise and you have a suited connector. He recommends just calling which is actually the play I would make. Possibly catch something then push, how if he is dead set on raising then 1500 is a nice number b/c its bigger than the pot but still not too much to where if he gets raised he can lay down the hand and still be in the tournament. I understand stealing blinds is important and with people not defending the blinds you can try to steal but going all in with 76s is not a good way to make a living. Of course he didn't want to be called, but I'd doubt few hands would call his 1500 and not his all-in. 76s is a hand I want to see a flop with. Then I can break somebody especially with a big pair and what appears to be rags on the flop. You may think I'm a newbie but I still understand the game or poker. I also understand that guys with smaller chip stacks shouldn't bluff at pots b/c when they do they don't have the chips to force the ace 6 and other bad hands out. So please if you still think I'm wrong...tell me where...because I'm all about getting better and if you think I'm wrong then please show me why.
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  #17  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:38 PM
sekrah sekrah is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

Calling is terrible. The only way you can win a pot is if you hit the flop hard, picked up a draw, and the two big stacks missed completely (unlikely and not good poker IMO.)

Raising to 1500 is terrible. If he comes over the top, you're already priced in, because you're no worse than 3:1 against any possible two cards our opponent might be holding (unless it was 7-7, very unlikely), and you could be as narrow as a dog as 1.5:1. The only play worse than raising to 1500, is folding after the opponent moved all-in over the top of the 1500 raise. If your raise is flat called, and you miss your flop (likely), you're bigtime screwed with only a handful of BB's left.

Push all-in and your opponent can only call with A-K, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, one of four possible hands (maybe J-J is he sucks) and based upon the read of our villain and the image of our Hero.. Push all-in is the only play here. (well you could definently fold, but I think you're passing up a tremendous +ChipEV opportunity folding, and you're already down under 20 BB, you'll need to make this move sooner or later, this is the perfect spot.)
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  #18  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:41 PM
Pat Southern Pat Southern is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

<font color="orange"> Danny H. </font>
newbie


[/ QUOTE ]


I'll let this one go and pretend you never offered that advice.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he appreciates the mercy of one of the old timers who's been here 6 days longer than he has.
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  #19  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:42 PM
Danny H. Danny H. is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

Sorry guys didn't read the ep+1 calls, that changes everything, now he either has to push or call. I go with call and hope I hit a flop and then can bust him. However pushing against a pocket pair above 7s put him at a more than 3:1 dog, against A Ko almost 3:2. Those are two logical hands one or both could have and although sometimes you have to be behind in a hand, I don't want to be in for all my chips in that situation.
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  #20  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:43 PM
reecelights reecelights is offline
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Default Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.

[ QUOTE ]
Well in Doyle Brunson's book he talks about this situation, about trying to catch something if a player is playing kings and aces and doesn't raise and you have a suited connector. He recommends just calling which is actually the play I would make.

[/ QUOTE ]

This play is illustrating a move outlined in Harrington on Hold 'Em. Doyle does recommend getting in cheap (limping with other limpers or calling minimal raises) with suited connectors in late position, but calling in this situation is borderline because of the early position raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Possibly catch something then push, how if he is dead set on raising then 1500 is a nice number b/c its bigger than the pot but still not too much to where if he gets raised he can lay down the hand and still be in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]
1500 in NOT bigger than the pot. See my math above. There is 1950 in the pot when it gets to him. Betting 1500 is how you might play this if YOU had AA or KK in LP against a raise and limp. Build the pot, but don't chase out a caller. In this situation he is STEALING the pot and does not want callers.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand stealing blinds is important and with people not defending the blinds you can try to steal but going all in with 76s is not a good way to make a living. Of course he didn't want to be called, but I'd doubt few hands would call his 1500 and not his all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, please see my math above. The is a significant difference between 1500 and 3400 in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
76s is a hand I want to see a flop with. Then I can break somebody especially with a big pair and what appears to be rags on the flop. You may think I'm a newbie but I still understand the game or poker. I also understand that guys with smaller chip stacks shouldn't bluff at pots b/c when they do they don't have the chips to force the ace 6 and other bad hands out. So please if you still think I'm wrong...tell me where...because I'm all about getting better and if you think I'm wrong then please show me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to check the time stamps on the posts (it took me a while to compose mine and there may have been posts in between), but another poster has also already pointed out that 3400 (or whatever the push size is, I've forgotten) is a significant portion of the other two player's stacks. 1500 is almost a mandatory pot-odds call. In this particular situation, he would have been better calling with his hand than betting 1500. 1500 is going to get a push from the KK and then probably have to call because he is pot-committed (1950+1500+3400=6850 with 1900 to call, or 3.6-1 pot odds).

In short, I highly recommend reading Harrington on Hold 'Em so as to understand the basis of the OP. It will answer all of the questions in your most recent response.
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