KK 3-bets from the BB, flop not good.

TripleH68 · #1 11-30-2005, 04:12 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

MP1 is 38/7/1.46.
CO is 8/5/2.75.
SB is 23/15/0.83.

Should I have been more aggressive postflop here?
And what about that river fold? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

River: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero folds?

Nick C · #2 11-30-2005, 11:10 AM

I'd probably fire into the flop, but I don't think it's usually going to do much good. With MP1 raising preflop and the super-tight CO cold-calling and SB also involved, I think we're usually going to be behind someone here. And it's not like QQ or QJ is folding for one bet, either, so if we just get called, we're going to find ourselves in the same awkward spot all over again on the turn, unless we get lucky and hit our gutshot (hopefully with a non-diamond queen).

So I'm saying I think I like the flop check. And I like calling when it's just one bet to you. Your outs situation may not be very good, though. Catching your gutshot may just give you a chop (or, if the Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] falls, give someone else, like MP1, a flush). Also, it's possible a queen or two is already out there, in other people's hands. If so, that limits your chances of hitting your gutshot and also means spiking a set would just give you a redraw.

Why is SB waking up on the river? Did he whiff on a turn checkraise with his flopped set or turned trips? Did he hit a backdoor flush with Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? Did MP1's turn check convince SB his A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is good after all?

I don't know, and I might have called. But the fold seems all right to me. Among other things, SB is pretty passive and probably isn't firing into three opponents with less than an ace.

I'm not sure what's going on with MP1 and CO. Do they both have QQ? I suppose it's possible.

Abbaddabba · #3 11-30-2005, 11:13 AM

With the way you played it, it must have looked to MP as if you were attempting some retarded stop and go turn check/raise as many do when they flop a set, a straight or something comparably big.

#4 11-30-2005, 11:17 AM

I think I would have raised that river, but folded to a 3-bet. I don't want those overcallers behind me, and there's a good chance you still have SB beat. He may be betting merely because the turn was checked through, or maybe he has something. I'd say it's either raise or fold, though.

#5 11-30-2005, 12:10 PM

I'm calling the River with 9-1 odds.

thejameser · #6 11-30-2005, 12:48 PM

i would fold. the sb is passive postflop and is betting into 3 people? if he does not have you beat chances are one of the other guys may. i hate the multiway river, too many ways to lose.

#7 11-30-2005, 01:04 PM

Since you 3 betted postflop i would say that you bet the flop or fold.
That would make guys with weak aces to maybe(not often but maybe) fold and leave you alone with a flushdraw or straightdraw.
And if youre raised youre know for certain that youre beat and could fold. A check from you indicates that you have KK or QQ and got scared from the flop.

I would put MP on AK/AQ since he bets the flop but checks the turn after an scary ten that could have hit the SB or BB and because he got called by 4 peaple on the flop and someone could have AJ/AT.

About the river i would say raise or fold. If MP is the guy that would lay down a big ace then maybe a raise but youre probably beaten by SB that cought the river or more probably was planning for a c/r on the turn but it was checked around.
So i would say fold!

#8 11-30-2005, 01:52 PM

I don't mind the river fold; SB is passive, and you still have two players behind you. Mind you, it looks like MP1 has something like QQ and got scared with all the action on the flop, CO probably would have been more aggressive with any A that she would have played. It's tough to make the reads here, but I would say MP1 has a weak made hand (QQ, Ax) and CO is on some sort of draw. Unfortunately, CO is ultratight preflop and a draw would likely include big cards.

Your alternative to folding the river is raise/folding. You may stop MP1 or CO from calling with a weak ace and isolate a worse hand that SB now thinks is good. Generally speaking though, I think the fold is fine.

TripleH68 · #9 11-30-2005, 03:01 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

River: (8 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Qh Qc (two pair, queens and tens).
SB has 3d 3h (full house, threes full of tens).
Outcome: SB wins 10 BB. 

I waited until after the session to looks at COs hand.

Then I laughed. Almost cried. But didn't. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].