Sometimes being a LAG gets you in trouble.

[Hotrod0823]

He is essentially all in anyway. I think you can call and get shown AJx with Ad enough to make it correct.

You played 86s and hit your hand hard, you have to bet it hard on this flop. I think I push this flop and make the guy holding Ad or Kd chase.

Not to mention you have those crazy 2 straight flush outs to fall back on.

I had a similar hand last night, Raised 43s on the button, flopped my baby flush and pushed over a BB pot bet. He instacalled with ATx, TPTK with A high flush draw. So it happens.

If this isn't a rebuy 1st level isn't this a horrific call preflop? Is it not smart to use the Gap Concept early in tournaments?

[ansky451]

FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The first rule of MTTF is there are no rules?"

"This isn't NL, this is bowling, there are rules."


FWIW, this hand is pretty boring. You have like a million chips or something.

[ansky451]

Meh. My bad.

Your avatar broke.

I like and hate this play at the same time, I'm so confused. I have made this play before, usually with connectors though, such as my now not so famous 4xbb raise from MP with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], wouldnt you know it, I hit quad 2s on the turn. Poor guy never saw it coming. Obviously in your hand, only that concerns me is OP has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but you got to bet it, odds are you are the only one to flop the flush.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure there are. Specifically, the magic words 'implied odds' are shorthand for 'stacking somebody when the crap I call with flops something really cool'. So the rule you are missing is that you should only call this hand when 1)you know how to play it well, 2)you think they are worse than you (not counting the 10/20 NL metagame or whatever), 3)you can sometimes stack them with it or at least take it away on an A72 board.

So, for example, let's say I make this raise and you call 85s, then a couple of people overcall behind. The following things will happen: 1)I will rarely pay you off without a magic A85 board*, 2)you will sometimes pay me off (when we both hit but I hit better due to my starting hands), 3)you will fold to my bets a lot or I will check fold my missed AK and you will fold anyway because you also missed and it's a 4 way pot.

*Lots of times, because this is 85s, what will happen instead is that I will hit top pair etc. and you will hit a draw. This is when you say the magic words 'implied odds' again and call or raise my bet, and I or someone behind me says 'but I have the best hand' and we wind up playing a big pot with you as a dog/you call two streets, bet when your draw hits and win surprisingly little/you had more than everybody else after all and win a small pot.

I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.

**note that if 3 people coldcalled that raise ahead of you, this would be an entirely different story due solely to the fact that you now have position on lots of idiots in a much bigger pot that people won't fold in.

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW).


[/ QUOTE ]

I second this. I went through a period where I basically saw the flop with any suited connector through two gapper and a lot of unsuited connectors, especially in raised pots. Also any pair, and a lot of mediocre broadway hands. I was experimenting. My goal was to do as much "outplaying after the flop/getting paid off when I hit a big flop" as I could in order to figure out how much implied odds you really have in these situations. Sometimes I got aggressive whenever I hit a pair, to see how often I could get someone to fold, sometimes I didn't even need a pair. Other times, I folded whenever I missed. In general, I tried to make use of my reads to do a mixture of the two and 'maximize the value of position.' Most of the time, I lost chips doing this, because most of the time the situation isn't right and you either bleed away chips one coldcall at a time or stick your neck out postflop at the wrong time.

My conclusion is that, yes there are ways to extract value from these hands exploiting specific weaknesses that you observe in an opponent , such as tendencies to raise too much and give up when he misses, or tendencies to overplay top pair. But against a typical raiser with typical postflop skills, you are giving up too much by taking 85s against his raising range.

Edit: In other words, deep stack be damned, don't coldcall raises with 85s or even 87s without a read on the raiser and most of the table behind you.

[ansky451]

[ QUOTE ]
I am convinced that coldcalling hands like these are a leak for the vast majority of players**, because it requires that you play really well and can often take pots down with nothing (which isn't really possible at that point in the 11r, BTW). I've never played with you that I remember so you might very well be an exception, but I would like to throw that out there.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is indeed possible. I'm not going to wave my poker e-penis around and say how I can always outplay my opponent post flop here. This is however, my pretty much "standard" play, as with deep stacks and position I love to put myself in spots like these. If I have a good read on my opponent, and I'm not playing like [censored], I do beleive this is a +EV preflop call.

This seems like more of a style question than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
FGators,

You read MLGs post. There are rules, but there really aren't. With 100 bbs and position, my cards aren't of all that much importance here. You are grossly misunderstanding the gap concept. I sometimes call AA here, I sometimes call with Q5s here. Deep stacked poker is mostly played on the flop, not preflop gators. You need to open your understanding of NL hold'em. What is the big difference between calling here with AJs, T9s, 22, 99? There isn't much.

This isn't limit hold'em. There are no rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't trust anything Dan Harrington says?