2 Semi-Bluff Turn Raises

[Knockwurst]

Trying to open up my game a bit. Were these semi-bluff turn raises the right play?

Both hands took place on consecutive days at local 10/20 B&M.

Hand #1

EP limps, MP1 limps, tricky LAG MP2 limps, CO limps, Hero in SB limps with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB checks. 6 players -- 6 small bets.

Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets out, BB folds, EP raises, MP1 calls, tricky LAG MP2 reraises, CO folds, Hero calls?!? (should Hero cap here?), EP and MP1 call. 4 players -- 18 small bets.

Turn is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, EP and MP1 check, tricky LAG MP2 bets, Hero raises?!? (It felt like the right play at the time, but I'm willing to consider other POVs). EP and MP1 fold, MP2 calls. 2 players -- 13 big bets.

River is J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check and MP2 checks. I didn't like betting out with my pair of nines on the river when the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell. What if it was J clubs or spades, does anyone bet out? What if it was a club or spade below a nine? Any views on the turn checkraise?

Hand #2

TAG EP limps, LAG MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button limps, SB folds, Hero in BB checks with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Five players -- 5.5 small bets.

Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets?!? (Maybe a checkraise would be better here for deception and so a TAG EP raise doesn't shut other players out?), TAG EP calls, LAG MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Button calls. Four players -- 9.5 small bets

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, TAG EP raises, LAG MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero reraises?!? (I don't know if this play was right, but I was thinking that if I hit the straight or, better yet, the flush, it would provide some deception to my hand), every one calls. Four players -- 17 big bets.

River is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets out?!?, EP folds, MP1 folds, Button folds!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] So was the three bet on the turn a good play or a bad play. Should I have checked the river looking to check raise.

Any comments appreciated.

[elindauer]

Oh man. The fact that you post these as semi-bluffs casts serious doubt on your poker logic.

First of all, a definition: semi-bluff, a bet or raise with a hand that isn't like to be best (hand 1), but which has some chance of improving to the best hand.

And some poker logic: a semi-bluff makes sense when you have some chance of winning the pot right there (hand 2).

Hand 1:

Your play is fine, but not a semi-bluff. Look, you may well have the best hand, but it is exteremely vulnerable and the pot is big. You raise to knock out overcards, knowing that if you are behind (probably to the bettor who will not fold a better hand to your reraise on this 2 flush board) you still have plenty of outs. There's very little chance that your raise wins the pot right there, so classifying it as a "semi-bluff" is wrong. It's a protect the best hand raise.

Hand 2:

You have no chance to win immediately, so once again raising as a "semi-bluff" makes little sense. You could argue that your raise is for value with so many callers, but I'd say just calling is best. Your reraise certainly deceives them when the flush arrives... they put you on top set, which they also can't beat!


Start over.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[Steve Giufre]

Eric pretty much said it all in his post. Hand 1 is not a semibluff. You should raise because you probably have the best hand. In hand two there is no point in three betting the turn, there is no way you will win without improving. Just call.

[bobbyi]

I would have capped the flop on the first hand. With top pair/good kicker and a big flush draw, this is a monstrous flop for you. If capping drives some people out, that's fine, as the pot is large and you don't mind increasing your chance of winning by losing players. If they all call, that's fine as you are going to win more than your fair share againts this number of opponents. You have a big hand on this flop and I would play it as such.

[Manzanita]

Knockwurst,

With respect to your second hand:

[ QUOTE ]
Hero bets, TAG EP raises, LAG MP1 calls, Button calls, Hero reraises?!? (I don't know if this play was right, but I was thinking that if I hit the straight or, better yet, the flush, it would provide some deception to my hand)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually your 3-bet on the turn is for value here. With three opponents in the hand, you only need 12 outs to jam the pot. Your nut flush draw gives you 9 outs and you probably have 6 more with your open-ended straight draw; hence, it would have been an error not to re-raise here.

-- Manzanita

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
it would have been an error not to re-raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless by making a raise that's slight +EV now he gives up more profitable situations later, like getting paid off when he hits the nut flush.

I'd 3 bet too, but it isn't necessarily an error given how tight his opponents seem.

[bigpooch]

It's a clear error in terms of EV in BBs. Even if exactly
one opponent is drawing to the same straight, there is also
a small chance that by pairing on an ace the hero can win.
So you can consider there to be approximately 13 outs out of
46. In addition, you will also gain more EV if it gets
capped 4-way, so not failing to raise is an error of more
than 0.15 BB and so it's still a clear error (a "whopper" to
borrow from backgammon lingo). On the other hand, there is
a tiny chance that these players will put in two bets cold
on the turn and surrender for another two! (But not in this
day and age! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

[Senor Choppy]

This is being completely results oriented, but notice the river action where his opponents both folded after he capped. It seems clear that in this particular hand that the cap on the turn cost him money.

[elysium]

hi knock

hand 1) the problem with the check-raise is that you have top pair with decent kicker; 2 pair. before making a semi-bluff check-raise, there must be some reasonable chance of gettinmg the fold. you very well might have that here. but the problem is that you also need to ask ' what hand that i can't beat, wioll my opponent laydown?'. and well, you have top pair; there is no hand that you are behind that your opponent will fold. he won't fold the same hand either. your hand can also improve.

hand 1 is a terrible time to checvk-raise semi.

hand 2) too aggressive on the turn. the river betout is perfect.

[Knockwurst]

You guys are right, these aren't semi-bluffs because there's no chance the raises will get everyone to fold.

But elysium, I'm surprised you didn't like the check-raise on hand #1 in order to try and get it heads-up against the player who three bet the flop. I would have thought I want to try to protect my pair of nines against overcards especially with the board pairing on the turn, and having a king high flush draw.

Another reason for the turn check-raise was in consideration of the "phantom cars." I wanted to project a looser image for future hands b/c I wasn't playing a lot of hands.