Calling an all-in with Q-10suited (let the beatings begin)

[suckbot]

Ok, I know this is probably a marginal call at best, but curious some viewpoints.

6 people left in a home tourney. Blinds were 500/1000 + 50 ante. I had about 1300 left.

I'm on the button.

First to play pushed all in for about 950, big stack calls. otherwise it folds to me.

I push. Here's my logic. I have only 4 hands until I'm forced all in (essentially). If it's small pair against high calling cards (without counterfeiting one of my Qs) it's about a 3 way coin flip. I'm getting 1/3 odds to triple up. With my stack size relative to the blinds, unless I made a big win, I'm going out before the top 3 payout.


Hands turned over were 44 (pusher) AA (caller) and Q-10 suited. Obviously, the AA didn't make me too happy.

However, luck was on my side and I hit a flush on the river.


The fact that I won is besides the point. What I want to know is, was it a risky play (but with SOME merit) or just a totally stupid one that worked out?

I don't think it was a great play. I like your thinking here about your M (essentially what you said about your orbits), but the reason you push with a hand like QTs is because of first in vigorish (as Harrington calls it). With two people ahead of you, one already all-in, you're not going to push anyone out. The big stack only has to call an extra 350 in chips, so why wouldn't he, even with a marginal hand just like yours? QTs is a wonderful hand to open push, but with 2 people already in front of you, fold and wait for another hand.

Yeah actually I was going to say exactly what Ninja said. The secret with pushing is to have first in vigorish against a small number of players left to act behind you.

Just wait till the next hand, if everyone folds to you push it in with any two cards, doesn't even matter if you have a hand because if everyone folds then you more than double up with the blinds alone.

Also 500/1000 with a 1300 stack..you're goin like Broomcorn's uncle..You need to make a move way before this point, your M is less than 1. You're a poker wraith. Even if you double up your stack is not even in contention.

[betgo]

It is not a terrible play. Caller had AA, but he didn't need a huge hand to call a push for less than 1xBB. Pusher didn't need a huge hand to go allin UTG with less than 1xBB.

I would rather call a raise with pot odds, assuming everyone else folds. You don't have much folding equity with 1.3xBB.

[Exitonly]

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I don't think it was a great play. I like your thinking here about your M (essentially what you said about your orbits), but the reason you push with a hand like QTs is because of first in vigorish (as Harrington calls it). With two people ahead of you, one already all-in, you're not going to push anyone out. The big stack only has to call an extra 350 in chips, so why wouldn't he, even with a marginal hand just like yours? QTs is a wonderful hand to open push, but with 2 people already in front of you, fold and wait for another hand.

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he has 1 BB, he's not pushing people out anyway. I think i like this, if he wins the hand, he more than quadruples up and then has some FE, if he loses, then he probably gets 5th place, which is what he probably would have had if he waited a few more hands. Plus, theres a higher chance that shorty gets knocked out.

[betgo]

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he has 1 BB, he's not pushing people out anyway. I think i like this, if he wins the hand, he triples up and then has some FE,

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If he wins the hand, he more than quadruples up.

[Rduke55]

I think this is fine. You're absolutely desperate and you have possibly live, suited, one-gapper broadway.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah actually I was going to say exactly what Ninja said. The secret with pushing is to have first in vigorish against a small number of players left to act behind you.

Just wait till the next hand, if everyone folds to you push it in with any two cards, doesn't even matter if you have a hand because if everyone folds then you more than double up with the blinds alone.

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No one that would play for 1K will fold to 1300 (1250 considering the ante). You have no folding equity.

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Even if you double up your stack is not even in contention.

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Which is exactly why he needs to push here because there is money in the pot so he can triple or quadruple up or whatever.

neither of these guys need to have strong hands to get in this pot. One is <1BB and the other limped.

No brainer push. Even if I thought I was crushed I would push. The money in the pot makes all the difference here.

[DVO]

Good call, you re as desperate as desperate gets, have a reasonable hand, and need to triple/quadruple up.

As stated you have no FE left anyway.

Again I don't agree. His best chance of making the money is to push against the few people behind him with first in vigorish. In this case the vigorish isnt important for fold equity but rather pushing when the situation is good, i.e. the people behind him are less likely to have a hand than the caller in this situation.

The player who called the first all in raise here has a hand thats probably at the very least above average, and he possibly dominates the Q10.

If he pushes with first in vigorish, hes more likely to win and stay , and if he gets called its going to be with a weaker hand than the caller in the first example would show down.

I think either way hes dead with blinds that high, but I would just be hoping the pusher gets knocked out 4th then I can double up and stay alive, possibly making it to 3rd.

Now if you don't care about just making the money and want to be first at all costs this is probably the best opportunity..but hes normally going to have to get lucky to win.

[Exitonly]

"first in vigorish" is all about fold equity. And it's kind of annoying people quoting Harrington word for word. I think it's a stupid term anyways.

In this situation, the two guys before you could have a TON of hands, QTs is absolutely +EV in this situation.