Need help beating these guys

[prayformojo]

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I'm playing party 2/4 bad beat tables (on the very rare chance that I could get one), but I have been doing decently.

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If you are playing the bad beat tables on the chance that you may win it, you may have more problems in your game than you think. I'm just guessing, but if you think that paying .5 extra in rake on almost every hand for a miniscule chance at a jackpot is +EV, you may be prone to other errors.

I play 2/4 bad beat tables as well. I have no illusions about ever winning a jackpot (it may happen: I just don't consider it when deciding what tables to play). I play these tables specifically for the conditions you're complaining about. The jackpot brings in a multitude of loose players, and lots of those players are delightfully passive. It seems to me that these conditions are the only real reason to play these tables.

If you can't handle these players, or can't handle the variance that accompanies them, either stop playing there or, better yet, improve your game.

[-Spike-]

I play the bad beat tables on the off chance that I'm at the table when it happens. I don't expect or even play to win it myself. I play there becuase there is a fair number of loose-passive players. I know these are the ones that make the most money for me in the long run. And yes, I can handle the swings. I just don't like it.

As for the original point to this thread, it's more towards the LPP types that play WAY too many hands and go all the way to the river and seem to always get the miracle cards. Is there any way to really beat these types.

I can beat the majority of the players there, and in fact, I have some data on a very large sample set of those players.

My continuing goal is to improve my game. This will never change as I will always look to improve my game. Even when I think I've reached the peak, there will be ways to improve.

[The Goober]

I stand corrected on the 25% number - sounds like it is reasonable. I mostly play live, so I don't many good per-hand stats. As another poster pointed out, though, the more people who see the flop with you, the less often your hand will hold up (but you'll make more when it does).

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As for the original point to this thread, it's more towards the LPP types that play WAY too many hands and go all the way to the river and seem to always get the miracle cards. Is there any way to really beat these types.

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No, there really isn't any way to beat these types. You've figured out the ultimate secret of hold'em: its just a myth that playing tight/agressive wins the money - a loose passive strategy is unbeatable!

...

I'm sorry - I don't mean to be such a dick. I just see it a lot, where people talk about how badly their opponents play and them complain about how its "impossible" to beat them. You obviously understand this as well.

[StellarWind]

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An autopsy of a winning session will usually reveal that the difference between winning and loosing was one or two critical decisions, combined with standard EV+ moves (value betting the river, pumping your flush draw correctly, protecting your hand with raises).

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Analysis of a session almost always reveals that the difference between winning and losing is *luck*.

A good player might win at an average rate of 2 BB/hr online. A poor but not terrible player might win at a rate of -3 BB/hr. That's your premium for being a good player instead of a fish: 5 BB/hr.

5 BB is nothing. Most individual pots are bigger than 5 BB. You are only slightly more likely to have a winning session than the fish. Never forget this.

Skill matters primarily in the long run. Luck dominates the short run.

[StellarWind]

The Party bad beat tables have extra rake that funds the jackpot.

1. It can be worth it if the game is sufficiently better (loose/passive).

2. TAGs win the fewest jackpots. Playing only a few hands and then driving the chasers out of the ones you do play is a deadly combination. The extra rake subsidizes the fish at your expense.

3. Party keeps 1/8 of the jackpot drop. That is a very stiif price.

4. Getting part of your EV in the form of jackpots increases variance.

[The Goober]

I've always thought BBJP tables were a sucker bet as well, mostly because of reason 2 (unfortunately I usually play live so they're hard to avoid). However, wouldn't it become profitable if the jackpot was large enough? Even slot machines can be profitable if the progressive jackpot is big enough. I would guess that BB jackpots virtually never get large enough, but has anyone actually done the math as to how big it would have to be for a given limit and drop amount?

[huxbux]

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If the game is really loose-passive, you might do better by playing more hands. If you can't beat them, join them. If lots of people are seeing flops, and you're not likely to be raised, a lot of hands become profitable from any position (like Kx suited, 89 suited).

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While you can open your starting hand requirements at a loose, passive table, I wouldn't go so far as to say you can play Kxs in any position. Position is still critical at any table.

[tewall]

Kx suited would prefer to have a somewhat decent kicker, like an 8 or 9. I should have specified that.

[-Spike-]

Goober,

The Party BBJP tables....the JP usually get's hit about once per week and the amount in the JP is anywhere from 50k-300k. The beauty of it is that even if you play tight agressive and fold out a hand, if 2 other people play it out and the BB happens, YOU still get a chunk.

The breakdown is this:
Party gets 10%
BBJP reseeded with 20%
of the remaining 70%:
loser of hand gets 50%
winner of hand gets 25%
everyone else that was dealt in splits the other 25%.

So, if the JP is 100k, the loser get 35k, the winner 17k and (assuming a full dealt in table), the other 8 players split 17k, or apprx 2k per person. Not bad for a 2/4 or 3/6 table.

It's a very slight chance, and I really don't expect to win, or even try to win one (unless the opportunity presents itself), but just being at the table is beneficial.

As the JP grows to 200k+ there are ALOT more players and alot of them play badly. It can be profitable.

I have not calculated my BB/hr in a while, and I will try to look at it today. I will calculate for just Oct and Nov and see where I'm at.