Good vs Bad In Multi Way Pots (Starting Hands)

[the 9]

Good post Bear, I just wanted to start things off, so didn't get to s/c but yes they have great multiway value if your limping in LP or calling a raise behind 4/5 others with decent stacks. Opening for a raise with them comes later [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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despite many posts on 2+2 saying you want lots of people in the pot when you have AA.

I don't ever see anyone saying this in here. And I'm sure that if they would risk it, they would instantly be shot through the knees by a small stakes footsoldier.

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I remember someone x-posting from a limit forum into MHS a few weeks ago, the limit guys were saying that they didn't mind if they capped it pf full ring and everyone called (I think this was the general idea but I could be wrong). I had a quick look for the post but I don't have time to search for it atm

[gulebjorn]

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Good post Bear, I just wanted to start things off, so didn't get to s/c but yes they have great multiway value if your limping in LP or calling a raise behind 4/5 others with decent stacks. Opening for a raise with them comes later [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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despite many posts on 2+2 saying you want lots of people in the pot when you have AA.

I don't ever see anyone saying this in here. And I'm sure that if they would risk it, they would instantly be shot through the knees by a small stakes footsoldier.

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I remember someone x-posting from a limit forum into MHS a few weeks ago, the limit guys were saying that they didn't mind if they capped it pf full ring and everyone called (I think this was the general idea but I could be wrong). I had a quick look for the post but I don't have time to search for it atm

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For all I know about limit, he could be right.

[punter11235]

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You are simply wrong and this really isn't open to debate as far as I'm concerned. Not to be rude, but there simply is nothing you can say that would convince me to play those hands in multiway pots.


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Ed Miller in SSNL wrote that AK actually gains more from multiway action. It is obviously true in limit.
If you try some simulations when everybody stay to bitter end its also true.
It may be not true in nolimit but I cant see any reasons for it be that way. You can protect your hand in nolimit and all hands like SC or 2nd/3rd pairs wont have odds to chase your TPTK. It looks like it is even more true in this form of poker.
I think that you have bad understanding of this situation as all the people who "raise to knock other hands" does.

Best wishes !

[punter11235]

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I didn't even read the entire thread. Apparently, you posted in it that you loved swolfe's line. You strange poka playa.

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I dont understand what you mean here. This line was perfect.
I am not saying that AK is bad hand heads up. I just say that it gains more from multiway action than it lose. That is what all discussion is about.
For example if you raise with AK and only one person call and if you raise with AK and 3 people call you expect to gain much more in latter situation.

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I'll give you one example to get started, there are more to be found all over these forums.
swolfe plays AKo


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I dont understand why you assume that I dont know how to play AK in 1on1 situation just because I say that its better hand multiway than heads-up...


Best wishes

[gulebjorn]

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It may be not true in nolimit but I cant see any reasons for it be that way. You can protect your hand in nolimit and all hands like SC or 2nd/3rd pairs wont have odds to chase your TPTK.

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Ah. You're a limit player?

Protecting your hand = raising people out. This includes preflop.

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I think that you have bad understanding of this situation as all the people who "raise to knock other hands" does.

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I'm no expert, so I could be wrong about anything I say. But I am pretty sure on this one. I would be very surprised if any experienced poster would agree with you on this one.

[gulebjorn]

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I didn't even read the entire thread. Apparently, you posted in it that you loved swolfe's line. You strange poka playa.

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I dont understand what you mean here. This line was perfect.
I am not saying that AK is bad hand heads up. I just say that it gains more from multiway action than it lose. That is what all discussion is about.
For example if you raise with AK and only one person call and if you raise with AK and 3 people call you expect to gain much more in latter situation.

Best wishes

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I know this is what you mean. But I disagree strongly.

What I mean is that swolfe raised very strongly in this hand. If you want to play AK multiway, raising it strong does not make sense.

[punter11235]

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Ah. You're a limit player?


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C'mon. What is that ? This forum is for thinking people. Writng something like this is an insult. Reading Small Stakes Holdem doesnt make me limit player...

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But I am pretty sure on this one.

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Could you give some arguments why you are so sure ? Ive already given some good arguments for my view. Give some yours, we will have interesting discussion just saying that you are pretty sure 3 times or more wont make your views more true.

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What I mean is that swolfe raised very strongly in this hand. If you want to play AK multiway, raising it strong does not make sense.


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Maybe it makes sense maybe it doesnt. But he would be more than happy if more people called his raise.


Best wishes

[gulebjorn]

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C'mon. What is that ? This forum is for thinking people. Writng something like this is an insult. Reading Small Stakes Holdem doesnt make me limit player...

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Ed Miller in SSNL wrote that AK actually gains more from multiway action. It is obviously true in limit.
If you try some simulations when everybody stay to bitter end its also true.
It may be not true in nolimit but I cant see any reasons for it be that way.

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The way you put this made me think you are a limit player, not the fact that you read SSNL.

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Could you give some arguments why you are so sure ? Ive already given some good arguments for my view. Give some yours, we will have interesting discussion just saying that you are pretty sure 3 times or more wont make your views more true.

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Okay...

1) more opponents = more likely that someone catches a piece of the flop. You will only pair up about 30% of the time. The rest of the time, you will have to let go. Against a single or even two opponents, you have an additional way of winning by taking it down with a continuation bet.

2) more opponents = more likely that someone catches something big on the flop. In this case, if you hit your TPTK, you will lose a lot of money.

Here are some numbers.

Against three opponents, holding AQo, 22 and 76s:
hand win%
8d 7d 32.21
As Kc 25.71
2c 2h 23.02
Ac Qd 16.47

Against one opponent:
8d 7d 41.71
As Kc 57.91

Qd Ah 23.69
As Kc 71.72

cards %win
2d 2h 52.75
As Kc 46.67

As you can see: seperately, you're a favorite against these hands, except for the small pair, where you are a small underdog. But heads-up, you should be able to take the pot from this guy on almost any flop.

Multiway, there's 3 of them against 1 of you, and you're exactly 3:1 against winning. And you would have to see both turn and river to get those odds.

This means that multiway, you need to dodge a lot of flops. One on one, you should win these pots easily most of the time.

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Maybe it makes sense maybe it doesnt. But he would be more than happy if more people called his raise.

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He wrote:

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AK is a weird hand. i either want to be up against 1 player or all of them...

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[punter11235]

Heh. I dont think we will come to conclusion on this one. Interesting point anyway.
Just some comments :
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Multiway, there's 3 of them against 1 of you, and you're exactly 3:1 against winning. And you would have to see both turn and river to get those odds.

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This is not true. More often than not hand like 7d6d will flop one pair or some kind of draw and in cases I had something on the flop this hand will need to see turn and river and it certainly wont if I bet.
Same with pocket pairs if I hit A or K the chance that they hit set are smaller (because there are only 2cards instead of 3 for their set) and if I flop my pair its the end of the hand for small pocket while in this simulation turn and river will give them set in approximately 8% of cases.
You included AQ in one simulation. Great. It took one of AK outs but if we hit A it will be costly...
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1) more opponents = more likely that someone catches a piece of the flop. You will only pair up about 30% of the time.

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its actually more than 1/3 as far as I recollect.

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2) more opponents = more likely that someone catches something big on the flop. In this case, if you hit your TPTK, you will lose a lot of money.


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But pocket pairs which are more likely to hit something big are not going anywhere anyway. And remember that they need to hit set while I hit my pair , chances for that are slim (1/12 or sth like that)

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But heads-up, you should be able to take the pot from this guy on almost any flop.


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This may be true in some weak tight 25NL but in higher games nobody will let you take down the pot with 55 on the 862 flop.

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AK is a weird hand. i either want to be up against 1 player or all of them...



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I agree that the case with exactly 2 opponents may be difficutl to play but I think its still better than 1on1.

I think that this question is interesting :

You raise the flop and get one caller. Its folded to blinds. Do you think that if blind call with something like J10 you gained or lost ? If another blind called with AJ do you think you gaine or lost ?
Do you prefer a guy with J10 to fold ?

While I can already see that it will be very difficult to come to conclusion on this one (I really put some thought here and I am convinced probably as stronly as you are [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
It maye be interesting to share some views anyway [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Best wishes !

[jedi]

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My view is that you are wasting EV on these hands.

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I dont agree. The more callers the better because if I flop A or K they dont take much of my equity and certainly not more than part of money they contributed.
What is even more important in SSNL the more callers the greater a chance that there is KQ or AQ (or even KJ , A10) crap around and I will win decent pot while outkicking somebody.

Best wishes !

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You are simply wrong and this really isn't open to debate as far as I'm concerned. Not to be rude, but there simply is nothing you can say that would convince me to play those hands in multiway pots.

I'll give you one example to get started, there are more to be found all over these forums.
swolfe plays AKo

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You'd rather win pots or money?

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I don't understand what you're getting at...

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It's a simple rhetorical question. If you don't know the answer, you should re-learn the basics of poker. I'll let others elaborate.