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#31
11-18-2005, 05:49 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Depends on stacks. With any semblance of deep stacks I would rather have JJ in position than QQ out of position. [/ QUOTE ] This, to me is the crux of the problem, EV from turn to river when AQ hits. If I was AQ out of position and check called the flop when a Q hit and blank hit the turn I would bet, because I know a check is likely to mean a bet and a tough decision. I believe there is some chance JJ would call, and that's EV. [/ QUOTE ] I do not like posting in this thread as I feel this issue has gone on long enough but I will try to lay this to rest once and for all. when you say things like "there is a chance JJ will call" and when mason says things like "when I check the flop with AQ, JJ bets all the time", you are assigning an action to your opponent which works to your favor. This kind of statement invalidates your whole premise. Why does JJ have to bet the flop when an ace hits? why does JJ have to call your turn bet? In otherwords, if you assign an optimal line to take with AQ, then you must assign an optimal line to take with JJ. in fact, Mason's line with AQ is so designed to work against JJ specifically that it gets killed against other hands in JJ's range. example : according to Mason's line, he would check call with AQ on a KQx flop. notice how every action made by the player with AQ seems like it is done with premonition of player B's holding of JJ. When you make a comparison of hand strengths, you must have all other variables equal, like strength of players. but your arguments center around the AQ player being able to get away from AJX, QJx, AQJ boards for only 1 bet but the JJ player unable to get away from AXX, QXX boards for less than 2 bets. notice how biased this is. It seems intuitively obvious that it is easier to get away with JJ from AXX or QXX than AQ from AJX or QJX, especially AJX boards as AQ feels that he has outflopped 2 hands in JJ holders range, KK and QQ. yet you persist in not giving additional value to JJ when it flops a set but giving additional ev to AQ when it hits a pair. notice when El diablo or some of the other posters make a point, they use the examples and numbers used by mason , while you come up with new conditions to make your argument work. This is not good debating technique. 
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#32
11-18-2005, 05:51 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There is no chance JJ will call. He will raise or fold. Unless he's calling in order to take it away on the river. Your line basically screams TPTK. [/ QUOTE ] In statistics or probability no chance is a very powerful term. Zero probability is a very unlikely event in the universe of infinite possibilities. I have played with and know players that make that call, that's why games are beatable. [/ QUOTE ] the argument of I know players that make the call does not refer to the strength of hands in a vaccuum argument. I know players that push AQ on JJx flops, does that mean I should assign more value to JJ?
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#33
11-18-2005, 05:52 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
I have played with and know players that make that call, that's why games are beatable. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this is how you can be a winning player in a live 5/10 game and still not know how to play winning poker. And this is why I suggest posting hands in SSNL even though they might be 5/10 hands. That is where you will get the best help.
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#34
11-18-2005, 06:48 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
Hi Mark,
The other thread was a migraine, but not because of you. Mason showed a lot of disrespect for all of us. No one likes condescension, particularly from an "expert" or a HOST. Dan Harrington and Ray have likely already explained Mason's error to him. Mason misstated the original problem. It caught me by surprise. I have come to expect that of David, who repeatedly stated "no one gave the correct answer" after I had given the correct answer to a few of his questions. However, while Mason has often spoken down to me in responses to my posts, he has not been so blatantly disrespectful in the past. I disagree with your position on the AQ thing but do not think you are at all stupid. Diablo did present an arithmetic argument so run the numbers if you wish. Otherwise, you CAN identify constraints that make AQs a better hand. Mason did not though. I appreciated Diablo presenting the numbers. I didn't have the stomach for it, because by that time I was already pissed and another "Best wishes" would've probably gotten me out of here for a long while. But then, why let Mason screw up a good forum? You have taken extra heat because you have taken the side of disrespect, not because of your beliefs about AQs. Please do not take it personally. Matt
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#35
11-18-2005, 07:29 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
Hi Mark, The other thread was a migraine, but not because of you. Mason showed a lot of disrespect for all of us. No one likes condescension, particularly from an "expert" or a HOST. Dan Harrington and Ray have likely already explained Mason's error to him. Mason misstated the original problem. It caught me by surprise. I have come to expect that of David, who repeatedly stated "no one gave the correct answer" after I had given the correct answer to a few of his questions. However, while Mason has often spoken down to me in responses to my posts, he has not been so blatantly disrespectful in the past. I disagree with your position on the AQ thing but do not think you are at all stupid. Diablo did present an arithmetic argument so run the numbers if you wish. Otherwise, you CAN identify constraints that make AQs a better hand. Mason did not though. I appreciated Diablo presenting the numbers. I didn't have the stomach for it, because by that time I was already pissed and another "Best wishes" would've probably gotten me out of here for a long while. But then, why let Mason screw up a good forum? You have taken extra heat because you have taken the side of disrespect, not because of your beliefs about AQs. Please do not take it personally. Matt [/ QUOTE ] Hard to take something personally when I am nothing more than words on a computer screen. I give my thoughts and am told I am stupid. Smart people don't call other people stupid, at least this is my life experience. If you think JJ is not negative EV against AQ when A or Q hits the flop with no J coming on the flop than so be it. I do not see the math to prove it, because it is very dependent on player betting styles.
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#37
11-18-2005, 07:35 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I have played with and know players that make that call, that's why games are beatable. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, this is how you can be a winning player in a live 5/10 game and still not know how to play winning poker. And this is why I suggest posting hands in SSNL even though they might be 5/10 hands. That is where you will get the best help. [/ QUOTE ] So, to you winning poker players shut down or fold when an overcard appears? Are you kidding me?
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#39
11-18-2005, 07:43 PM
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Re: Dummy needs help with poker basics!
[ QUOTE ]
you are changing what you are saying again. obviously JJ is negative ev against AQ when A or Q flops but no J flops. [/ QUOTE ] Well now we are getting somewhere. So, how much plus EV? don't forget all flop and preflop money is in the pot. So, with our example both players shut down after the flop when they were beat, except the times J hits the turn or river and Ace or queen has flopped (2% of the time). But what about the times no J hits the turn or river if A or Q flops (24% of the time), if AQ is plus EV, how much? Is it enough to offset the previous 40 -15 disadvantage?
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