AQ... - Page 3

crownjules · #21 05-02-2005, 02:34 PM

What does a raise accomplish here on the flop? Protection? Anyone with two clubs has the odds to call you (next to act is getting 6.25:1 odds). Anyone with an OESD has the odds to call you. Are you hoping to beat out Ax hands which, if you spike an Ace, you most likely have beat already? You have no made hand so it's certainly not for value.

I think you call this flop and if you improve on the turn with a non-scary card, that's when you set it off. Waiting for the turn protects your hand better as flush and straight draws will not have the correct odds to call you there. Unfortunately, the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] improves both draws and makes it more likely one of them is complete.

To OP -

I like the hand. I'm split between playing the river as you did or just C/C it.

Rockfish · #22 05-02-2005, 02:38 PM

Without looking at the other responses, I would say raise the flop and the rest looks OK.

MP2 had a 5?

MrWookie47 · #23 05-02-2005, 02:44 PM

There are very, very few flops where you can offer flushes and OESDs improper odds to call. There are far more where they are making money with every bet that goes into the pot. You should virtually never be thinking about protecting your hand from these. You can protect from gutshots, however, and raising accomplishes that.

DeathDonkey · #24 05-02-2005, 04:03 PM

This post is exactly right, raising the flop here is pointless unless you actually think you have the best hand.

-DeathDonkey

Wetdog · #25 05-02-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Without looking at the other responses, I would say raise the flop and the rest looks OK.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 had a 5?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or 2 clubs?

gvibes · #26 05-02-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This post is exactly right, raising the flop here is pointless unless you actually think you have the best hand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I'm surprised at everyone recommending raising as well. I personally think that calling > folding > raising in this situation.

MechanoMan · #27 05-02-2005, 04:35 PM

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll do some thinking about this.

bonaparte · #28 05-02-2005, 05:30 PM

blind....

I have read many times in SSH and on this site that you should not bet on the river if you think your beat. The theory goes that you will pay 2 bets if you have second best hand if you bet on the river, but only pay one bet if you don't bet on the river and just call for a showdown. I think this is a good place to check/call. I play the turn and flop the same.

istewart · #29 05-02-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What does a raise accomplish here on the flop? Protection? Anyone with two clubs has the odds to call you (next to act is getting 6.25:1 odds). Anyone with an OESD has the odds to call you. Are you hoping to beat out Ax hands which, if you spike an Ace, you most likely have beat already? You have no made hand so it's certainly not for value.

I think you call this flop and if you improve on the turn with a non-scary card, that's when you set it off. Waiting for the turn protects your hand better as flush and straight draws will not have the correct odds to call you there. Unfortunately, the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] improves both draws and makes it more likely one of them is complete.

To OP -

I like the hand. I'm split between playing the river as you did or just C/C it.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO this is a very good situation to raise. Your relative position is great to the bettor, it's not extremely unlikely that you have the best hand, you give gutshots and 5/6-out hands like T9 poor odds to call, and you can possibly clean up overcards.

Shillx · #30 05-02-2005, 05:55 PM

By making people fold you increase your chances of winning the pot and clear up your overcard outs (people will fold A's and Q's for 2 bets cold).

This is a misapplication of this concept. There are only a few rare cases where it would be correct to "clean up outs" here.

1) Someone has a hand like 88 and folds. The turn is an ace/queen and then the river is an 8.

2) Someone has AK and folds and then an ace hits.

3) We currently have the worst hand + someone has 52 and folds + we hit an ace to win.

4) We currently have the worst hand + someone has a hand like AJ and folds + the turn and river come exactly A/J.

These scenarios will almost never manifest in this hand. The best time to "clear up" outs is when you are likely to be dominated. Only one hand dominates AQ, and that hand probably isn't out there.

Brad