SSHE Book Club Discussion - Part Two: Preflop Concepts

[me454555]

I have and will toss AKo when its 3 bets to me. What the point of playing it? Opponents likely hands AA-TT, AK, AQ (unlikely but possible) Your either a huge dog or a slight favorite. The worst part is that if hes got QQ, JJ, or TT and you do hit your hand, he might just fold if you bet hard b/c he no longer has an overpair.

[morgan180]

I am just making the transition from NL to micro-limit (1/2) and the starting hand requirements are one of the most difficult concepts to grasp. The hands recommended to limp with are hands that would generally be mucked immediately in no-limit. Adjusting to the open limping with speculative hands is a real exercise for a NL player.

I have heard a lot of people say that they prefer the "tight" SSHE table hand charts rather than the loose table hand charts - although I am sure that by playing the "tight" starting hands at a loose table is giving up some +ev.

OhGeeTee made a very nice, easy to read chart of the hands based on position and in the face of a raise, reraise, etc. for all of the hands in the SSHE preflop hand charts. Here is a link to the thread Preflop Recommendations thread

here is a link to the chart itself preflop hand chart

i have found it very helpful while learning the limit game.

[LuckyStiff]

[ QUOTE ]
I find that strictly following the guidelines produces a VP$IP of about 15% and a PFR of about 6%. The best players seem to have a VP$IP of 12-13% and a PFR in excess of 7.5%.

I'm not sure exactly where you got these numbers, but from what I know, the best players generally have a VP$IP more like 18-22%, not 12-13%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed--This is based on 84,411 hands at Party 5/10 looking at only the TAA players. There were 324 of them averaging 14.22% VP$IP and 8.09% PFR and 2.51 BB/100. Perhaps these numbers are peculiar to the party 5/10.

[morgan180]

I think you have to play it but only when you are getting the # of players you need to make it worth the flush draw. If you don't get 1. the flush draw, 2. the pot size you need to make drawing profitable or 3. two pair then this hand should be mucked.

If I flop top pair with an Axs on an uncoordinated board, any real aggession is going to make me fold it - is this too weak tight?

I play primarily no limit where Ax is death so I usually walk away from TPNK on most boards at the limit games I am playing.

[shadow29]

5/10 is going to look hella different than 0.5/1

[twankerr]

Miller writes on pg. 69:

the smaller suited aces are fundamentally speculative hands, deriving much of their value from thei flush-making ability.

I believe this is the core misunderstanding when playing these hands. However, does this mean call down when an ace hits and make up the lost money from getting outkicked on the times that the flush hits? Hands like A9 and A8 are much easier for me to call down when I miss the flush, but the lower ones are the problem.

The goal of this discussion right now is to discuss how not to make mistakes preflop. Playing Axs on the flop and postflop will be discussed later. For now, assume Axs is a speculative hand.

On another topic, I love the idea of separating hands into three categories of high card strength, suitedness, and connectedness. We already do it intuitively, but thinking on everyhand how strong your hand is in each category will usually produce good results.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Playing A-X suited is a must in the loose low limit games. The key is you must know going in that if a flush draw or two pair are not flopped, you must get out of the hand. The discipline to make this fold consistently is the key.
Getting trapped playing A-X for high card value is a -EV play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I get an AMEN? Its so accurate that its worth saying again. A2s is worth playing in a loose low limit game because for every time you have to fold when the flop hits do to domination, you will more than make your investment back when a flush draw hits the flop.

Think about it... If there are 6 players to the flop on average you more than make up for the other times when you don't connect with a flush draw.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
Ed--This is based on 84,411 hands at Party 5/10 looking at only the TAA players. There were 324 of them averaging 14.22% VP$IP and 8.09% PFR and 2.51 BB/100. Perhaps these numbers are peculiar to the party 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because tyhey are TAA doesn't mean they are good profitable players. I tend to agree with Ed. My VPIP% is somewhere around 21-22% when playing based on the loose reccomendations, and 17%-18% when playing based on the tight reccomendations.

There was an earlier post about ITH's starting hands charts. Yes I agree I really like their format, but as Ed has tried to point out the charts are only a rough guide to express the concepts of his reccomended pre-flop decisions. For example lets talk A2s one more time... if the table is tightening up and the last two hands are only 3-4 to see the flop them muck them. This is not specifically represented in the starting hand charts, but the value of various starting hands and how to make decisions during pre-flop play are better expressed here than anywhere else I have read before.

Good job Ed!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Think about it... If there are 6 players to the flop on average you more than make up for the other times when you don't connect with a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can i see your math for this? I'm too lazy to work it out at the moment but i thought the probability of picking up a four-flush on the flop was something like 1/8. If 1/3 of those flushes get there, then the EV of playing Axs based only on flush potential would be:

- 7/8 * 1 SB (to see the flop -- simplifying assumption of no raises behind)
- 1/12 * several bets (the bets you end up putting in when your draw doesn't get there)
+ 1/24 * the net pot size when your draw does get there
- a little bit for losing to full houses and better

Even granting that it gets a little more value from flopping two pair, trips of your small card with an A kicker, wheel draws, freak full houses and quads, etc. i still figure that you'd need your pot when you hit the flush to average about 20 small bets to make it a wash -- unless there's also some value in the kicker-sensitive hands, top pair and trip aces. Nut flushes take down pots of 10 BBet at times, of course, but not often enough to be an average size i wouldn't think.

All this to say that there must be some value to hitting aces-weak kicker because otherwise playing A2s seems like it can't ever be profitable. As already mentioned, some of the value comes when it keeps you in for a backdoor flush that wouldn't be +EV on its own. Part of the value, which seems to go ignored, comes when you simply have the only ace to make the flop. With only two left in the deck that doesn't seem outrageously improbable, even granting that in many low-limit games any ace that got dealt is going to hang around for the flop (not to mention the turn and river).

Also, aces-weak kicker on the flop is sort of like a five-out middle pair draw. If you pair your weak kicker on the last two cards then you likely have the best hand. If you make trip aces, that's one less ace in opponents' hands to outkick you.

And we haven't even talked about all the counterfeiting scenarios a la Ed's hidden outs chapter....

Of course it's the betting that will really give you clues about how likely each scenario above is, and I don't hear anyone saying that experienced players should automatically fold aces-weak kicker. But it seems to me that if you're going to send beginner players into battle with instructions to fold Axs with anything worse than two pair or a nut flush draw, wouldn't they be better off not playing that hand in the first place?

Thing is, Ed's book doesn't seem to be written for people who are going to need a mindless "flop this hand or else" manual. Even we beginners can get a lot out of the book, but we have to be thinking beginners.

[Malcom Reynolds]

A2s is worth playing in a loose low limit game because for every time you have to fold when the flop hits do to domination, you will more than make your investment back when a flush draw hits the flop.

Yes. But you prefer a passive game, with loose multiway pots. Often at 3/6 Party Poker tables, I don't play these up front because of the aggression. And I'll limp only to have someone raise behind me, and now I'm playing dominated and out of position in a shorthanded pot.

So really A2s-A7s are hands that REALLY depend on table texture.

Pocket pairs 22-88 are more forgiving however, because their play is less positionally dependant and also can play in shorthanded pots if you expect your opponents to incorrectly give you too much action to the river.

Without a read on your opponents however, it's better to stick to large multiway pots for pocket pairs. But they stand up fine to playing for two bets preflop if it's very multiway. In fact, with 4-5 players in the pot already, I will usually raise my pocket pairs from late position/blinds, which is a nice play that SSHE doesn't mention.