An Odd Flop Situation With KTs

[Jake (The Snake)]

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I'm not sure how we can talk about reverse implied odds in this hand. It doesn't seem applicable.


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You don't think we are going to end up paying off better hands here pretty often?

[Zeatrix]

First of all the limp is terrible on most tables (as you realize when the TAG raises). The only time I'd limp with KTs is at pacific where the table average VP$IP is usually as high as 40-45% unlike say party where it is usally around 20-25%. KTs wants a multiwaypot and hit a flush or straight, palying it for best pair is always gonna be tricky whenever opponent shows strenght.

Secondly when three people see this flop I'd bet every time I hit top pair. The reason is that this can get a reaction from the PF-raiser and will also define BBs hand. Say I bet and the TAG raises, well i don't know for sure if I'm still ahead but we will for sure know how strong the BB is after he reacts. Hopefully we can get HU.

Now if we were only two to the flop, that's a whole different story.

[QTip]

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I'm not sure how we can talk about reverse implied odds in this hand. It doesn't seem applicable.


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You don't think we are going to end up paying off better hands here pretty often?

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We have a terminology issue here.

My first offering at a hand analysis... also, I'm a fish. However, my overly aggressive play has showed me thru experience that you are dominated here. He's got KQ or AK or worse. So, I'd say you've got 4 outs (including the flush draw). I fold.

[imported_stealthcow]

i haven't read any replies yet but

what other hands do you open limp with? this range is pretty important for observant opponents. i basically never open limp unless table conditions are "perfect", but i also dont play much fh so that accounts for basically never. do your tables have to be a certain quality for you to limp KTs utg? if so, and if this qualifies, cool. if not, i'm curious about how open limping has worked out for you. it gets a bad rep on these boards, but i think a case can be made for open limping. also what stakes is this game?

anyways, to the hand. if the board was K62 with 2 hearts, i'd be much more happy to call. its more likely bb has hearts and you can call and given that the mp3 doesn't 3bet, you can raise the turn, knock mp3 off whatever he has and hopefully get a free showdown. given that its a rainbow flop with no draws, i'm feeling a fold isn't too bad here. but if he's laggy then it pushes me more towards the call and raise turn line.


stealthcow-

ps. are you ever planning on playing sh?

[Bill Smith]

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The only time I'd limp with KTs is at pacific where the table average VP$IP is usually as high as 40-45% unlike say party where it is usally around 20-25

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You must be playing on a different site named Party Poker...

[BWebb]

I 3-bet the flop. I think you have too much hand to throw away. SB could be c/r with a weaker king or even a 6 hoping the flop missed MP3. I don't like smoothcalling and hoping to raise a bet from SB because:

a) He might not bet a weak holding (which is something he probably has since he checkraised). This will make it tough to know where you stand in relation to MP3 if he is still in the hand.
b) If you are behind, you spend 3 BBs to find out (the pot will be about 11 BBs if you raise the turn and he 3-bets, so you are getting odds to draw to your ~4 outer).

If MP3 calls the reraise or caps, you know you are drawing to at most 5 outs, probably 3. You can call the flop and check fold the turn UI. If MP3 folds and SB caps, same thing. If SB calls and checks the turn, I might check behind because my hand isn't terribly strong and a free card on this board isn't devastating. Or you could bet and fold to a checkraise.

[W. Deranged]

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I'm not sure how we can talk about reverse implied odds in this hand. It doesn't seem applicable.


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You don't think we are going to end up paying off better hands here pretty often?

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I think the point that the poster is trying to make about reverse implied odds is that the board is pretty drawless and we aren't very vulnerable to many other hands. Therefore, if we have the best hand right now we will usually have the best hand at showdown. Therefore, we don't really need to discount our present equity as a result of having to pay of future hands or whatever...

[W. Deranged]

I decided to cold-call, basically following a line of thought similar to those expressed by Private Joker, Nick C, etc... I wanted to be able to raise some turn cards if it remained three-handed, I figured the TAG's reaction would pretty much tell me where I was at, I didn't have much need to protect, etc...

The action went:

BB checks, Deranged checks, Solid Tag bets, BB check-raises, Deranged cold-calls, Solid Tag folds (!)...

The turn was an 8 and I decided that heads-up I had a marginal edge at best and decided to call down. (I'm really not that far ahead of his range particularly as the 8 at least knocks out one of the Ks I was ahead of).

He showed K8 and MHWGBEUNLS. (My hand was good but ended up no longer so).

[W. Deranged]

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Some of the preflop discussion in this thread is laughable, imo. KTs can absolutely be played UTG.

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I agree. I'm plenty confident in my post-flop play to play KTs UTG, and play it pretty much all the time.

We should be looking to play as many hands as we profitably can, and that often means playing hands like KTs that have definite value but are often advised against primarily because they can be pretty difficult to play. Hands like this go way up in value as you get better at extracting value from marginal holdings post-flop and folding when beat.