QUESTION FROM TOP AND HPFAP......

[hbgolfpro]

In HPFAP on page 139, we are told that we should tend to check hands with outs...and bet hands that have no outs. However, in TOP on page 88, in the example we are told to bet the A7 while to not bet the pair of 8s. The book says that since we have more ways to improve with the A7...which means MORE outs...that we should bet. Which is correct? Also, in HPFAP we are told to bet hands...IF ALREADY BEATEN, with no outs. But in TOP we are told that with a hand that has few if any outs..the more convinced we must be that we have the BEST hand before we bet!!!Hmmmmmmm

[Luke]

I haven't looked at either of these books in over a year but my basic understanding of the "check with outs on the turn" concept is that you generally want to check hands with 4ish outs (gutshots, 2 pair when flush or straight is likely).

But when you have a flush draw or say middle pair + flush draw, you may want to continue betting because you have might have the best hand and you have enough equity to justify calling a raise if it comes from a better hand.

Luke

[DanZ]

Luke,

If you are playing frequently, I would recemend never going a year, or even half a year, without rereading TOP and HPFAP.

The biggest difference between the 2 examples is that one is a flop play, where one should very liberally bet hands with outs, and the other is on the turn, where the situation is very different, and you will be abandoning many semi-bluffs.

With 5 outs, you can more liberally bet the flop since you would be very likely to call a bet anyway. You may still want to bet the 8's for other reasons, but this reason does not really apply since you would not call a legitimate bet unless the pot was huge.

The example you offer with middle pair and a flush draw is contrary to what HPFAP suggests, and I think the books may be worth rereading.

With a drawing hand, getting raised on the turn is expensive, and you cannot fold. Thus any information you gain by getting raised does you no good. This is why they suggest checking these hands as part of an overall strategy that includes liberal checkraising.

If, however, you had a pocket underpair (say tens with a K on board), the book advice is to bet because free cards are dangerous and much more likely to help your opponent than you. Now if you are raised, you will often be able to fold and save a bet over checking and calling twice. Notice this fold only costs you 2 outs on 1 card, so it's not a crime that you didn't get to see the river.

Dan Z.

[oreogod]

So say we moved the TOP example with the A7 and 88 to the turn...

We want to bet 88 and check A7 correct? (this is obviously a generalization...but assumes if u bet A7 and get c/r u dont have odds to call the raise).

I suppose if someone came up with examples it might help, I know ppl usually have a lot of questions about this.