Suited Connectors Facing Re-Raise In Position

[Big_Jim]

This is an incredibly basic question which I have not found a good answer to (perhaps I should search the archives more...)

Folds to Hero on button who raises to 4 BBs with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Or any other small SC).

SB Folds. BB re-raises to X.

BB is a nit PF and will be making this raise with QQ+ and maybe AKs. He will go broke with an overpair or TPTK every time.

How big of X are you willing to call to try to stack him?

Assume X = percentage of your stack.

For small pocket pairs, I'm willing to get about 10% of effective stacks+pot in for this situation, but I don't have any good rule of thumb for suited connectors in this spot. (I've been using about the same rule for calling with the SCs, but I have no idea if it's optimal. I suspect it's not)

What about 1 gappers?

A few relevant probabilities (on flop):
2 Pair: 24:1
Trips: 73:1
FH or better: 1000:1
Flush: 118:1
Straight: ??
Straight Draw: ??
Flush Draw: 8.1:1
SFDraw: ??
Pair + SD: ??
Pair + FD: ??
Pair + SFD: ??

2 Pair or better (ignoring draws + Pair+draws): 14.9:1

Of course, the above ignores both the ?? odds which I cannot for the life of me find, and don't yet want to try to calculate, and also ignores redraws.

Anybody got a good rule of thumb for me?
Anybody want to give me an explanation of where they got that rule?

[stu-unger]

5/10 rule, 5% with scs and 10% with pps is what i have always been told. im not sure that has any place in this situation though.

[scdavis0]

You are on the right track by starting with the ultimate implied odds hand -- the small PP -- and then work backwards.

The obvious weakness of the suited connector vs the small PP is that you can hit the fcvk out of the flop and you are now only like 55/45 to win. Other big flops like two pair are not through tickets either. Often you'll want to peel a safe turn before commiting tons of money.

You've provided the blueprint for some complex maths involved in flopping certain draws/hands.. the obvious next step is figuring out your EV when you hit those flops. It looks like a good exercise for someone so inclined.

I'm not sure I see tremendous value in calculating this exact figure, because it seems obvious that 10% is too high. And anything less than 5% is too low.

[Big_Jim]

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5/10 rule, 5% with scs and 10%

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Hah, I've heard about this rule, and never knew what it referred to.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5/10 rule, 5% with scs and 10%

[/ QUOTE ]

Hah, I've heard about this rule, and never knew what it referred to.

[/ QUOTE ]

in the FAQ baby!!

Q: I've heard other posters mentioning the 5/10 rule. What is it?

A: The 5/10 rule is an important no-limit concept that first appeared in Bob Ciaffone's excellent book, "PL & NL Poker." To quote directly from the book:

"When contemplating calling a raise because your position is good, you have a clear call if the raise is less than 5% of your stack, and a clear fold if it is more than 10%. In between those numbers, use your judgement."

It's a good rule for calling a preflop raise with a pocket pair in hopes of hitting a set. The driving force behind the concept is the implied odds in a given situation. If you get your set, but the opponent only has 5BBs after the initial raise, calling to hit the set in the first place is incorrect.

[Big_Jim]

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I'm not sure I see tremendous value in calculating this exact figure

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Yeah, definately. Pre-flop is always way less important than post-flop. I just thought that setting up the problem like this would be the best way to get responses, and maybe get somebody to work it out. Having an idea within a percentage point or two is probably good enough.

[Big_Jim]

[ QUOTE ]
in the FAQ baby!!

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Dammit. Xorbie, feel free to kill this post.

[scdavis0]

I think this would be a pretty interesting problem to calculate.

Let's just assume you shove a pot sized bet from villain everytime you flop any of those hands above and just fold every other time.

Anyone wanna go for it?

[pokerjoker]

10% of effective stacks with any pp is pretty nuts. You are pretty much assuming 100% that villian will give you his whole stack when u flop a set. Also keep in mind theres a chance that you will both have a set by the river and you will get stacked.

If Villian is a huge donkey and I might get to see the river and win with my unimproved set or bet him out then it is ok.

Last I checked the 5-10 rule was definatly call 5% and call up to 10% of stacks depending on the player with pp.

As for the SCs post I would like to see the ?? filled in. I will say that most meaningful reraises from a decently aggressive post flop player are going to get me to fold here though.

[scdavis0]

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BB is a nit PF and will be making this raise with QQ+ and maybe AKs. He will go broke with an overpair or TPTK every time.

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10% of effective stacks with any pp is pretty nuts. You are pretty much assuming 100% that villian will give you his whole stack when u flop a set.

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