a hand has got me thinking - Page 3

cold_cash · #21 11-29-2005, 04:23 PM

I could see you working, I was just confused with some of the wording before you made some edits.

Basically the way I would play this hand, if I made the pre-flop call, would be to check and call the flop, check and call (but not overcall) the turn, and then check the river and hope it gets checked through.

The river is obviously the crappy part.

I don't want to bet/fold because of the fear that the villian may see through this and stick it to me w/ KK, QQ, etc. (Although making this play takes some stones and it might not happen as much as I'm imagining, even against someone familiar with this approach. If this is actually the case maybe this is the way to go. I dunno.)

I don't want to bet/call because he might stick it to me w/ AK, AQ, etc.

If I made this call before the flop I would check and call the river and admit to being his bitch when he takes the pot.

brettbrettr · #22 11-29-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Basically the way I would play this hand, if I made the pre-flop call, would be to check and call the flop, check and call (but not overcall) the turn, and then check the river and hope it gets checked through.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the river is a check-fold, but I'm in a privledged situation as I know what I'd do because I'm me. Basically, if I don't have an ace, I'm not even betting the turn against two opponents. No way. I'm not even sure that betting it against one on that flop is great, but I'd do it. But after I get called by these two guys on the flop, I see no reason to bet this turn. Hence, if I bet the river, it would really be for value.

cold_cash · #23 11-29-2005, 05:11 PM

If we knew this then check-folding the turn is the way to go, and I wouldn't have a problem if someone advocated that.

I guess this is a good example of why I wouldn't play A9 in this spot.

brettbrettr · #24 11-29-2005, 05:13 PM

I woudln't play A9 here either. Even if it is 7 handed, the raiser is still an EP guy.

Can you see anything wrong with my "I'm not putting in any bets past the flop if both call" if I don't have an ace? I'm trying to balance not being weak with not spewing. Sometimes it works. Others....

TakeMeToTheRiver · #25 11-29-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good discussion b/c my thoughts too, FWIW, is that if sb folds, I'd check-raise. Once he calls, everything gets fuct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody wants to consider the check-raise further -- so I will add this:

I would also check-raise with A2o and K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] here and I assume Brett would consider those possibilities -- now is a check raise (if SB goes away) any better?

brettbrettr · #26 11-29-2005, 05:25 PM

I don't know why you'd play A2o here.

cold_cash · #27 11-29-2005, 05:28 PM

I think in the long haul a check-raise in this situation is going to be a money loser.

I just think the chances of being 3-bet are too great, and if that doesn't happen this can easily turn into a 3-barrel bluff that just gets called down.

TakeMeToTheRiver · #28 11-29-2005, 05:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you'd play A2o here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume you mean preflop? If so, you have a point -- so make it A2s, non-spade (that may be borderline but a more likely call).

cold_cash · #29 11-29-2005, 05:33 PM

If only the BB called the flop bet I would probably bet again on the turn without an Ace for a couple reasons.

1. He shouldn't have Ax.
2. There's a spade draw out there.

Actually, I'm more concerned about reason number 2 than 1.

If this was a rainbow board checking the turn seems okay, especially if it's just you and him, because he can't really have any draw you're worried about at that point.

(And also I don't know what we're holding. If we had QQ or KK, okay, but with TT or JJ I'm not so sure.)

W. Deranged · #30 11-29-2005, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a good discussion b/c my thoughts too, FWIW, is that if sb folds, I'd check-raise. Once he calls, everything gets fuct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't particularly like check-raising the flop heads-up in this pot either unless there were severe metagame considerations that led me to do it (like I'd played 10 similar hands against this guy in the past week and yada yada yada...)

The reason is that I think check-raising the flop basically makes it possible for Brett to play the hand perfectly because check-raising is almost like turning your hand face up on the felt.

If you check-raise, Brett most likely is going to give you credit for an A unless he has some specific reason to believe you'd do this with a lesser hand (intending to fold out a hand like JJ).

So once you check-raise with an A, Brett has you where he wants you: If he has a big A (AK or AQ), he can wait and really make you pay (I think the sweetest line in that case would be to call the turn and then raise the river to avoid giving you an easy spot to fold). If he has a medium a (AJ, ATs or something) he'll probably just call down and take an effective wa/wb line himself. If he doesn't have an A, he'll probably fold early and not pay you off.

The only way in which I can see check-raising this river to be correct is if you have a reason to believe that Brett will often not give you credit for an A. In other words, from a game-theoretic perspective, check-raising with an A only really makes sense if you are also going to check-raise without an A with some frequency. If you know that Brett knows that you are capable of doing so, check-raising becomes a much more viable line because Brett is now much more likely to call you down without an A.

Also, we should note that check-raising the flop isn't great from a "cut your losses perspective." Brett may well not raise the turn and give you an easy opportunity to fold. Even if he does, you still put in 2 BB and not even gotten to a showdown to figure out your beat, whereas 2.5 BB will get you to a showdown and let you see all 5 community cards.

So I really don't like any line other than check-calling the flop. After that it becomes more interesting, as I think there may be some value to a turn donk-bet (basically you confuse Brett, maybe get him to call down a medium pair, maybe slow him down from really punishing you with a bigger A, maybe discourage him from value betting the river if you decide to check that street, and so on). My suspicion though is that checking the turn will probably be correct as well though.

One of the tough things about this hand is because of your position and the board texture, it'll often be quite hard for you to win more than 1.5 BB or so when ahead. That is the number to shoot for, in my opinion. If the hand ends up playing out: check-call flop, turn gets checked through, and you value bet the river and Brett calls; in my opinion that is a pretty good outcome for the hand.