a hand has got me thinking

[cold_cash]

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...but assuming its 3 handed on the river, and you donk the flop, and brett raises, wtf?

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Huh?

[McGahee]

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...but assuming its 3 handed on the river, and you donk the flop, and brett raises, wtf?

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Huh?

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He actually makes a valid point. There is more than one WA/WB line and if I opted to do that here I would not bet the river - he's probably not calling with an underpair anyway.
I could see check/folding the river because he will always value bet bigger Aces and check behind with KK-77 or whatever.

[brettbrettr]

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...but assuming its 3 handed on the river, and you donk the flop, and brett raises, wtf?

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Huh?

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I edited it. Its "donk the river."

[W. Deranged]

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I don't know the specific players, but assuming this is the game I am familiar with and making certain assumptions about the players identities --

On the flop, if SB checks:
I check-call if SB calls
I check-fold if SB check-raises
I check-raise if SB folds

If SB bets out, I probably call (possibly fold) but expect to fold to a raise from PFR or on the turn UI.

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I can't see how check-raising the flop would ever really be correct.

If you do that and then bet the turn, brett is usually either raising the turn or folding the turn, and very rarely calling down with a worse hand.

[WillMagic]

Forgot to mention, I'm just c-cing the river if it's still three-handed at that point.

And now that I think about it, since it's brett and we know each other I don't really like running an exploitable river line. So forget what I said earlier - I'm just gritting my damn teeth and check-calling.

Will

[W. Deranged]

I got an idear...

I think check-calling the flop is definitely right. Check-raising basically just spews against better As and encourages underpairs to fold. Betting the flop has a similar effect but has the added problem of putting us in confusing spots if brett just calls and doesn't even net the 1 sb check-raising does if brett just puts on a good read and folds his JJ on the flop or whatever...

The other thing I think is important to realize is that brett is probably not value-betting the river with anything less than an A here, and he may well not call the river with an underpair if we take a wa/wb line (if he's really feeling spikey he might raise the river with less than an A though...) So I'm thinking that the correct river line probably involves check-folding.

I don't think, though, that we can check-fold the turn with that much confidence unless the SB calls in front of us (then I think we have a pretty easy fold).

So I'm deciding between two things:

1. Bet-fold the turn and then check-fold the river if called.
2. Check-call but don't overcall the turn and then check-fold the river.

The advantage of #1 is that I think I have an easier time making the river fold after I've shown some aggression on the turn, and it prevents the turn from checking through if in fact we are ahead and brett decides not to bet his underpair or something because he figures that when he gets two calls on the flop he is beat.

The advantage of #2 is that it doesn't give brett an opportunity to get away from the hand easy on the turn and may allow us to get away from the hand cheaply if the brett bets and the SB calls.

Since our hand isn't vulnerable to overcards and because I'd like to avoid spewing even 1 bb when running third, I think I prefer check-calling the turn.


So this is an opportunity for the rarely seen: check-call, check-call, check-fold.

[cold_cash]

I was thinking about the check/fold river approach also, especially if the SB was still in.

(Although I think over-calling on the turn would be bad anyway, so I would rarely find myself in this spot 3-handed on the river.)

This is a tough river to play.

[brettbrettr]

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This is a tough river to play.

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I agree and I'm sorry if it took me two posts too many to get there. Many things suck about this hand.

(In real life, the big bet streets were way different, but that doesn't change the nature of the excercise.)

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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[ QUOTE ]
I don't know the specific players, but assuming this is the game I am familiar with and making certain assumptions about the players identities --

On the flop, if SB checks:
I check-call if SB calls
I check-fold if SB check-raises
I check-raise if SB folds

If SB bets out, I probably call (possibly fold) but expect to fold to a raise from PFR or on the turn UI.

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I can't see how check-raising the flop would ever really be correct.

If you do that and then bet the turn, brett is usually either raising the turn or folding the turn, and very rarely calling down with a worse hand.

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Hey Will,

Let's think about this. What is your line if SB was never in the hand? Do you fold preflop? For argument sake, lets say you didn't and we get the flop of Ad2s3s. Is this a hand that you will check-call all the way to the river (or donk bet on the river)?

I have been trying to work through the various scenarios on paper (CR vs. CC asssuming SB folds on the flop) and I am getting myself a little bogged down by my assumptions about how Brett will react based on the hands he might have. Does he fold JJ/QQ/KK immediately to the flop raise? On the turn? When will he get aggressive with a better Ace (AJ/AQ)? On the turn? Never?

I think a check-raise on the flop might lessen our losses but it also hurts our potential gains... I am not sure where the balance is. Might it also help us avoid folding the winning hand?

Anyway, your mind is sharper and younger (although mine is probably just as juvenile), so maybe you can come up with answers that I can't.

[brettbrettr]

This is a good discussion b/c my thoughts too, FWIW, is that if sb folds, I'd check-raise. Once he calls, everything gets fuct.