30-60 Live KK hand

[ike]

This analysis makes no sense. You really need to read/reread Sklansky's Theory of Poker.

[Michael Davis]

"QQ or JJ is a big possibility," and "I don't quite remember all the math involved, but I'm pretty sure a fold here is right or marginally wrong at best."

These statements are way inconsistent. There isn't any rule that says you must raise. There's also no way he's folding either of those hands, and he shouldn't. Just because you don't feel confident enough to raise here doesn't mean you can't call him down, especially since he rates to be drawing dead some of the time (and just calling will keep him following through on his bluff).

-Michael

[Lawrence Ng]

Ok, here's what really happened.

I raised the turn, he re-raised me again and I just call. On the river an airball came, he bet and I called.

He showed me 9-10 suited.

This is one of those hands where I clearly felt I was beat. I can't explain it, but on the turn I just wanted to muck my kings so bad that I almost released it. Believe me, when it's HU I don't feel like mucking KK very often. Then at the last second for some reason I decide that he might be bluffing me out so I cry call knowing 90 percent well he had a 10 in his hand by the river.

Now, did I play this bad? No I did not. I played it based on whatever information I was granted at the time about this kid and his styles. I could not put him on 9-10 suited with an open raise. A-10 suited would be more like it.

Now I am not the best technical player in the world, but as Doyle Brunson states there is something about a poker player - call it instinct, a sixth sense, an innate subsconsicous reaction, that says "hey, fold your damn hand - you are beat" or "raise cuz he's got crap and you can bluff him." I don't know how to put this in +EV, but I have used this process to really let a lot of great hands go, and contrary have also used it to make some very gutsy plays. I do not do it very often, nor does that process come up a lot, but when it does it's quite reliable. I can't explain but I trust it. And this example is just another hand to prove it so.

All comments welcome.

[Michael Davis]

You are allowed to make plays like this, but you better be damned sure they're right.

And, honestly, there's no way you can post some major laydown or ridiculous call and get legitimate responses, because the play looks awful. It is, as you point out, a technically incorrect play that you make on feel. Fine, go for it if your feelings are right enough of the time, but there's nothing anybody on a message board can say. If you call the river with 7-high because you are sure your opponent has 6-high on an AAKK2 board and you are right, you are still going to flamed on this board, rightly so.

-Michael

[ike]

Uh, thinking you're behind after he 3bets the turn is a lot different from thinking you're behind when he leads the flop. You ended up being right but your analysis was horribly convoluted and, barring past evidence that his confident body language is a reliable tell, I maintain that a a flop fold is insane. No one said you ever have to raise or that you have to call down if you get reraised, but just mucking this flop for 1 bet is ridiculous.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, here's what really happened.

I raised the turn, he re-raised me again and I just call. On the river an airball came, he bet and I called.

He showed me 9-10 suited.


[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, I like this story more than I like the one that ends, "I folded when he bet the turn". If this kid is tight/passive and not on tilt, I might like the story to end, "I folded to the turn three-bet" but against a player on any kind of tilt, I can't see letting this go (unless his brand of tilt causes him to become super-passive).

SpaceAce

[Apocalypse]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't explain but I trust it

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't trust it, since you decided to raise the turn anyways cuz "its the right thing to do". In my own experience, i play at least 99% of the hands in the manner we discuss on this forum here, but there is a slight minority of the case where instinct as you call it kicks in hard. My advice, if you have it, follow it. Screw all the rules, all that you have been taught in order to be a 'good pokerplayer', and follow the line your gut tells you to go. Try to analyse your instinct afterwards, to sharpen it for future purposes but learn to trust it almost unconditionally (save some important criticism). I have been starting to and since that point, my no limit results have improved revolutianary, and i save or gain myself some extra money here and there down the line in limit holdem. Sure you can post a hand like that, and will get flamed for it (like happenened to me here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], but u were there, u 'knew' it was like that and thats all theres to it. If you have the gift, learn to use it. Hope this helps,

[rory]

Reads become important when the decisions are close. In a big pot, if you never switched a play that is usually a call into a fold, regardless of your read, you couldn't be far from wrong. Small pots are when you can use your reads, because if you make a mistake it is not such a big one.

In version of the hand where you folded on the turn, by the river there will be 6 BB in the pot. It is going to cost you 2 BB to call down so you are getting 3:1 on your money. This is one of those close situations where you can use a read and if you happen to be wrong it is not a big deal.

Also you have added folding equity. If you are wrong and you had him beat, the kid wins a little pot which won't put him off tilt. But if you are right and he has you beat, the kid wins a little pot with his monster which may make him lose his mind.

-rory

[sfer]

If you're going to raise the turn and not fold to a 3-bet there, you're much better off just calling the turn and river.

[jimswarthow]

The problem is you also characterized this player as (semi-tilting) if I have gotta youngster hotshot who knows how to play and hes taken 2 beats in a row and I think he MIGHT be on tilt I would check call him all the way. However because I AM a youngster hotshot I know observers will categorize my minor displays of emotion as (tilting) and i can then maintain my game and win extra bets.
Your fold, given the way you described the situation was premature.....