ATo vs Flop C/R

TheHammer24 · #1 10-06-2005, 04:32 PM

Don't really remember reads, but flop c/r was somethign like 13/4/1

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (7.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Did I have implied odds to call the turn, even though my gutshots might be chopping? Should I have even considered folding the flop?

private joker · #2 10-06-2005, 04:47 PM

Preflop: For me, ATo is a bit light to raise in this spot. But then again, I just looked in PT and the hand has been a solid winner for me -- +0.44bb/hand in the last 160 occurrences, so maybe I should be raising it. Or else maybe the reason I'm winning with it is that I'm not raising...

Generally I fold ATo in EP, open-raise in MP or limp after a couple limpers, and limp/raise in LP depending. But the 5/10 game is tighter than 2/4, and so ATo probably plays differently in your game. I forgot how 2/4 plays.

On the flop, I think the bet/call is standard.

Turn: I don't think you can call. Your two T outs won't necessarily give you a winner; your three A outs are definitely tainted (any K makes Broadway), and your four K outs are a bit discounted. So I'd give you about 3.5 outs here, which isn't really enough. But it's close, and I don't think it's a disaster or anything to call. River fold is good.

Maulik · #3 10-06-2005, 04:48 PM

fold the turn.

if you call the turn, call the river.

Azhrarn · #4 10-06-2005, 04:55 PM

I like the pre-flop raise after two loose limpers, but if UTG+1 is tight-passive like you suggest, I don't think it's the right play. You're going to be dominated a fair amount of time. I'd be inclined to toss it.

I would fold the turn.

jskills · #5 10-06-2005, 05:04 PM

I think the problem may be preflop here. Given villan's stats, do you think the hand he's limping in EP with is one you should isolate with using ATo? Could be, but probably not.

13 VPIP is tight.
4 PFR is very small.

So the range of hands I see him limping with are AQo, AJo, AT-9s, KQs, KQo, QJs, & 66-TT.

I think calling preflop and on the flop is the way to go. You wouldn't have odds to draw to the gutshot on the turn if you took this line.

Given the line you did take, I don't see any way to play it.

W. Deranged · #6 10-06-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the pre-flop raise after two loose limpers, but if UTG+1 is tight-passive like you suggest, I don't think it's the right play. You're going to be dominated a fair amount of time. I'd be inclined to toss it.

I would fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

My immediate thought when reading this hand was that ATo is just a hair too light to be raising two limpers given that one of them is limping UTG+1 and is 13/4... AJ certainly and probably AQo are likely limping hands for player's with that profile, as is possibly TT. Therefore, the range of hands dominating ours is quite substantial.

W. Deranged · #7 10-06-2005, 05:17 PM

You should fold the turn.

It takes some ambitious calculation to get the necessary odds to draw to your gutshot or a possibly good T or A.

Hand-reading also really helps here. When I get check-raised on a J high board by a 13/4 villain UTG+1, I'm thinking that I'm up against AJ a very high percentage of the time, and KJs another very high percentage. I would say that the substantial majority of the time you are either drawing to 2 clean outs + chop outs (against AJ) or at least one of your gutshot outs is tied up in your opponent's hands. I think 4 outs is about the most you can figure here and that may be pushing it, and you don't have the odds to get there, particularly because you'll sometimes be half-hitting (like an A on the end) and still losing.

#8 10-06-2005, 05:20 PM

I definitely fold PF and definitely fold the turn. AT is garbage against a 13/4 VPIP in EP....even with the limp. I think you need a king to win on the river.

TheHammer24 · #9 10-06-2005, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: For me, ATo is a bit light to raise in this spot. But then again, I just looked in PT and the hand has been a solid winner for me -- +0.44bb/hand in the last 160 occurrences, so maybe I should be raising it. Or else maybe the reason I'm winning with it is that I'm not raising...

Generally I fold ATo in EP, open-raise in MP or limp after a couple limpers, and limp/raise in LP depending. But the 5/10 game is tighter than 2/4, and so ATo probably plays differently in your game. I forgot how 2/4 plays.

On the flop, I think the bet/call is standard.

Turn: I don't think you can call. Your two T outs won't necessarily give you a winner; your three A outs are definitely tainted (any K makes Broadway), and your four K outs are a bit discounted. So I'd give you about 3.5 outs here, which isn't really enough. But it's close, and I don't think it's a disaster or anything to call. River fold is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo is my third or fourth best winner, abuot .44BB hand. I raise with it almost always MP and beyond. Does 13/4 really limp with only with AJ and AQ? That seems pretty tight for 13 VPIP. I didn't mention it and shouldn't add it later, but the player in between myself and TP was very very poor player, and my raise also served the purpose of isolating. Sorry for adding late, still I raise in this spot most of the time, and and my PT stats like the play [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

hobbsmann · #10 10-06-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: For me, ATo is a bit light to raise in this spot. But then again, I just looked in PT and the hand has been a solid winner for me -- +0.44bb/hand in the last 160 occurrences, so maybe I should be raising it. Or else maybe the reason I'm winning with it is that I'm not raising...

Generally I fold ATo in EP, open-raise in MP or limp after a couple limpers, and limp/raise in LP depending. But the 5/10 game is tighter than 2/4, and so ATo probably plays differently in your game. I forgot how 2/4 plays.

On the flop, I think the bet/call is standard.

Turn: I don't think you can call. Your two T outs won't necessarily give you a winner; your three A outs are definitely tainted (any K makes Broadway), and your four K outs are a bit discounted. So I'd give you about 3.5 outs here, which isn't really enough. But it's close, and I don't think it's a disaster or anything to call. River fold is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

ATo is my third or fourth best winner, abuot .44BB hand. I raise with it almost always MP and beyond. Does 13/4 really limp with only with AJ and AQ? That seems pretty tight for 13 VPIP. I didn't mention it and shouldn't add it later, but the player in between myself and TP was very very poor player, and my raise also served the purpose of isolating. Sorry for adding late, still I raise in this spot most of the time, and and my PT stats like the play [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

To me the key concept of this hand is adjusting to when a mouse limps in EP as this should tell you a lot about their hand range and you therefore need to tighten up both your raising standards and limping standards.