For a good time, call.

Tommy Angelo · #1 07-08-2003, 08:06 PM

$20-40, one of those games that seems real soft if you make a few hands and impossibly tough if you don't. I was doing that second thing for couple hours when this hand came up.

I had pocket threes on the button. Under the gun openraised. Three players called. I called. Both blinds called. Seven of us to the flop.

The flop came: K-J-4 with two hearts. I had the three of hearts. UTG bet out. All between us called. I called. One blind folded and the other called. Six of us to the turn.

The turn card, as you might have guessed by now, was a three. UTG bet out. The next player raised. The next two players folded slow enough to give me some unwanted think time. Well. I wasn't much worried about the raiser's hand unless maybe he had pocket fours. UTG could have pocket kings or pocket jacks I suppose. I looked at him while the folding in front of me was going on. UTG looked quite ready to do something. Reraise? Call the turn and firmly checkcall the river? His path was decided. I just didn't know what it was yet.

My default here is to just raise raise raise and not even think. It was all those slowfolders that gave me this extra time. What if UTG and the turn-raiser were both drawing dead to my hand? Or maybe somebody got happy with a flush draw and a pair. Do I need to protect my hand? Should I maybe just c... ca.... cal... Gawd I can't even say it.

I called. The blind folded. Three of us left now. UTG made it three bets on the turn. The middle guy did a quizzical but certain call of the raise. Back to me.

Okay, I really don't want to pay four bets on the turn, and at least one on the river, to find out that UTG had flopped a set and that I was drawing to runner-runner quads when the flop came down. So I just called the third bet on the turn.

The river, a blank, a black eight. UTG bet out. The other guy called. I called.

UTG showed KJ. The other guy showed KJ. And my hand was good. Man this game is easy.

Tommy

Diplomat · #2 07-08-2003, 11:03 PM

Hey Tommy,

I think you played it about right, especially since you noticed that UTG might do something strong when the betting returned to him. That said, I think a river raise might be in order if he just calls the turn, unless a scare card comes. (pairs the board high)

-Diplomat

Clarkmeister · #3 07-08-2003, 11:31 PM

The fact that you are capping it by 4-betting the turn makes capping a no-brainer to me. The fact that you are possibly getting 2-1 on a river raise with a hand that figures to be best >75% of the time makes that a no-brainer also.

Just think how sweet it could've been if you had gotten to do both of those things.

Tommy Angelo · #4 07-09-2003, 12:26 AM

Upon further review, you and Philuva are totally right. I crumbled on the big streets.

skp · #5 07-09-2003, 02:48 PM

There had only been a bet and a raise when it got to Tommy so if reraised, it would not be a cap.

But in any case, I agree that he ought to have made it 3 bets on the turn. The pot has about 26 small bets in it and although mathematically, you would want the PFR to call if he had AA, in practice, I would want him to either fold for the one raise that has already been made (unlikely) or call two more bets (which he just might).

Incidentally, in case the PFR was driving it all the way with AQ like a madman, then of course, not making it 3 bets is a bigger mistake on Tommy's part.

Clarkmeister · #6 07-09-2003, 09:48 PM

I was referring to his 2nd chance to raise on the turn, after the preflop raiser 3-bet both Tommy and the initial turn raiser. That was when he could've capped it.

Perfect spot too, because it looks like a "ah - screw it, I cap" sort of cap and might have still led to a 2 bet river as well.

skp · #7 07-10-2003, 12:40 PM

Yes, of course.

My bad read.

Philuva · #8 07-08-2003, 11:45 PM

"$20-40, one of those games that seems real soft if you make a few hands and impossibly tough if you don't. I was doing that second thing for couple hours when this hand came up. ."

I think this pretty much sums up your thoughts on this hand. From the very loose calls pre-flop and on the flop to the very timid calls on the turn and the river, you played like someone who had been losing all night.

First you thought, hell, I am better than these guys and should be winning a lot more than I am, I will cold-call 2 bets with 44 and then outplay them. Then you caught your hand and started thinking, man, these guys have been killing me all night, might as well get to a showdown as cheaply as positive.

Why did you call the flop bet if you weren't prepared to raise when catching your perfect card?

What exactly were you hoping would come on the turn?

Clarkmeister · #9 07-08-2003, 11:53 PM

I think the preflop call is routine with that absolute position (button), that relative position (many players between you and the preflop raiser), and that many players involved.

Philuva · #10 07-09-2003, 12:13 AM

Agreed. I was really just pointing out the initial mindest from the opening sentence, had this wishy-washy feel, that leads to tommy playing the hand in a wishy-washy way. Never raising or folding. While some hands you can make a case for calling all the way, I don't think this is one of them.

But yes you are right, the initial pre-flop call was correct, given the initial raiser and 3 callers and the probability of the blinds calling.