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  #1  
Old 11-07-2004, 02:25 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default The little things. Abusing your stack.

This is a hand that many of you will have played a thousand times, but it occured to me that these simple hands don't get much discussion.

This hand is probably far more interesting than it first appears, feel free to discuss it or ignore it at you feel fit.

$11 at stars, UTG and Big blind have been playing reasonably tight, but are looking like they are probably not stupid enough to fold themselves to death.
They are also not stupid enough to get themselves killed.
They are however slowly losing chips to the button.

The button has been raising frequently, but only for small sums and has generally taken it down on the flop with small bets (400 or so)
Whenever I've challenged these small bets, I've moved him off the hand, but in general I've been happy to let him do the work.
He's also been abusing the button to limp in and bet the flop.

PokerStars Game #834878xxx: Tournament #3320xxx, Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2004/11/07 - 00:59:29 (ET)
Table '3320464 1' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 5: UTG (1185 in chips)
Seat 6: Button (5895 in chips)
Seat 7: lorinda (SB)(4955 in chips)
Seat 9: Big Blind (1465 in chips)
Small Blind: posts the ante 25
Button: posts the ante 25
lorinda: posts the ante 25
Big Blind: posts the ante 25
lorinda: posts small blind 100
Big Blind: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lorinda [6d Kc]
UTG: folds
Button: folds
lorinda: calls 100
Big Blind: checks
*** FLOP *** [9h 3s 8s]
lorinda: bets 200
Big Blind:

Lori
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  #2  
Old 11-07-2004, 02:44 AM
dfscott dfscott is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

One of the mistakes that I make with hands like these is coming out too hard. In this case, I probably would've come out with a pot-sized bet, and I think that gets you in too deep if BB has really hit. For that reason, I like this line better.

My question is whether 200 is the right size -- is it enough to move them off junk?
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  #3  
Old 11-07-2004, 02:46 AM
Jason Strasser Jason Strasser is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

Lorinda,

Just move in preflop. It's much easier, and he can hardly call you with most hands. Stack sizes are perfect for this move. Now your in a situation where if he calls, you have no idea where you are, and if he raises, well then you fold. Pushing here preflop is definitely +EV.

-Jason
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  #4  
Old 11-07-2004, 03:03 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

My question is whether 200 is the right size -- is it enough to move them off junk?

I took the view that he wouldn't want to become the 4th highest stack, so my answer is yes.

In response to Jason's points, I'm confident that if I can keep in touch with the button stack-wise that I'm going to beat him, so I'm looking for low downside +CEV to increase my $EV.

I'm certainly not claiming that your way is wrong, I wouldn't have bothered posting if I was going to say that.

My argument however is that I'm willing to give this pot up if the guy is brave enough to as much as call here.
I believe my move is +CEV, that's the most important feature to me here.
I don't think it's a much lower EV than the preflop push, but it is a much lower SD.

The way I'm playing this pot doesn't alter my chances of winning the endgame much, but still gains me some chips in the long run.
The other way seems to be too much risk for the gain involved.
I believe you are correct that pushing preflop gains more chips on average, but I'm not convinced it gains more dollars.

The reason I'm posting again so soon is to steer the discussion along these lines, because I think it's a fascinating position (I like scenarios that are not necessarily the correct cash game play but might be in tourney play... they teach us the most)

One thing that is important is that the opponents are deemed to be lacking surprise value, I consider this inherent in the $11 games and believe that once you have a player pegged as "does this, doesn't do that" that the player will remain that way until either the end of the game, or at least until the last three places.

The player is looking for a hand to double through with, but he's also fighting for the bubble.
I don't believe he's going to call many chips away, but he might well raise.

Anyway, I'll see what everyone else thinks for a few hours [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Lori
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2004, 03:10 AM
lorinda lorinda is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

One last clarification.

If seats 5 and 9 are reversed and I'm up against the small stack, I play it Jason's way.

Lori
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2004, 03:15 AM
Miamipuck Miamipuck is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

[ QUOTE ]
Lorinda,

Just move in preflop. It's much easier, and he can hardly call you with most hands. Stack sizes are perfect for this move. Now your in a situation where if he calls, you have no idea where you are, and if he raises, well then you fold. Pushing here preflop is definitely +EV.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with Jason.

I was in a 200K qualifier SNG on PP tonight with a similar situation. I had been folding when I was BB quite a bit. There had been no need to push when the blinds are minimal. Here is the sitch.

Button: 2500
Me (BB): 1500
Blinds 100/200 no one else pertinent in the hand.

Folded to Button, he raises his standard 2x, SB folds. I had K-6 spades. I just blasted him and went all in. He folded, and he never tried that crap with me again. I went on to win the tourny.

Point being is that if you notice the button consistently raising a set amount, say 2x the BB, Push push push. It will accomplish 2 things. First and Foremost it will get you valuable chips. Second, it will make the thief think twice about doing it again, well at least if they have mediocre hands. I completely agree that this exact situation has nothing but +EV.
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2004, 09:47 AM
Unarmed Unarmed is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

Lori,

Personally, I auto push that PF. (not shocking as I'm sure that was your first thought as well) However, if your read on Villain is correct, I think your play is great. I hate when someone 1/3 bets the pot against me with stacks like this because i *know* there's a good chance its a bluff, but I'm not confident enough to risk my whole tourney to find out. So I think (given stack sizes) your bet amount is great.

On to the PF call. Upon reflection, I like this as well, but only if you were planning on betting any flop (sort of a PF stop and go) If your read on Villain is correct, he'll only push back at you after the flop with a piece of it, and probably requires middle pair or better. If so, (ignoring draws as its HU) he's only calling your flop bet less than 1/4 of the time. Given you are auto betting t200 on the flop you're wagering t300 to win a total of t800 (including your bet) so you're good even assuming you never hit a piece of the flop.

Anyway, I like it... I think. I have to go to football but I hope this thread continues, as I think a stop and go strategy, even a stop and push strategy could be quite a powerful alternative to the simple push PF mantra depending on how weak your opponent plays post flop.
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2004, 07:43 PM
t_perkin t_perkin is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

I would also tend to avoid the PF push if I felt that I was better than the other players at the table. Although you would still have a perfectly healthy stack if you called and lost.

After that it is all just a matter of how you read the guy, if you think you can make him fold often enough then great. If you think he may call or raise then you are obviously in trouble a lot of the time.

just some thoughts

Tim
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2004, 03:02 PM
rachelwxm rachelwxm is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

I like you mix it up when it come to sb. But when bb has 7 bb and I have lots more, I think I would push here with K high. I would not push if bb has >10bb if you are not confortable about variance.

On the flop, I would definitely fold to a reraise all in since I am likely have only 3 outs. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] A check is very weak since a good player would fire with anything at bb when check to but he is not deep enough to try a check raise bluff.
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2004, 05:43 PM
TheDrone TheDrone is offline
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Default Re: The little things. Abusing your stack.

How do you rate a standard preflop raise as a third option with variance between limping and pushing? Given your read of the BB, he will most likely fold. If he comes over the top, then you would have to fold the lesser hand to keep variance down if this is your goal, even though you probably have pot odds to call.

The concern I have with limping is that you give the BB a chance to catch something with garbage hands that he would fold to a standard raise. However, a standard raise is also problematic because you give the BB a chance to move in with some hands he would fold to a push. Thoughts?
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