2nd level thinking...

SparkyDog · #1 09-22-2005, 04:10 PM

I was sitting around thinking today about how it's only necessary to think one level above your opponents and other things when I realized I didn't really know any tried and true ways to tell when my opponent was thinking on the 2nd level. What are some common indicators that an opponent is employing 2nd level thinking? Would it be wrong to consider the free card and free showdown plays a watered down form of 2nd level thinking (Villian raises so I think he has a good hand, then checking behind). Also, how many opponents think on the 2nd level in everyone's general experience?

MoDOH · #2 09-22-2005, 04:31 PM

2nd level thinking and such is more applicable live than it is online i think...

kidcolin · #3 09-22-2005, 04:36 PM

that avatar rules.

donger · #4 09-22-2005, 04:55 PM

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2nd level thinking and such is more applicable live than it is online i think...

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What are you talking about? 2nd level is just thinking about how your opponents perceive your hand, right? I'm pretty sure all competent players do this.

Only the truly awful players drive around without ever looking past the hood ornament.

Nietzsche · #5 09-22-2005, 07:13 PM

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that avatar rules.

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Zlatan? If not, who is it?

RunDownHouse · #6 09-22-2005, 09:10 PM

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What are you talking about? 2nd level is just thinking about how your opponents perceive your hand, right?

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1st level: what do I have?
2nd level: what does he have?
3rd level: what does he think I have?
4th level: what does he think I think he has?

And so on.

The Truth · #7 09-22-2005, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? 2nd level is just thinking about how your opponents perceive your hand, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
1st level: what do I have?
2nd level: what does he have?
3rd level: what does he think I have?
4th level: what does he think I think he has?

And so on.

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basic, but i like.

-blake

SparkyDog · #8 09-23-2005, 03:44 PM

Subtract one from each level and you're dead on.

SparkyDog · #9 09-23-2005, 03:58 PM

Bump/Content Added

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Villian is slightly too loose and too aggressive pre and post flop. Stats are like 40/24 for PF.

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (7.20 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Jd Qc (one pair, twos).
Hero has 9c Tc (two pair, nines and twos).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.20 BB. 

I think this pretty clearly establishes that Villian is thinking on the 2nd level when he tries to bluff the ace. He's thinking that I'll put him on the ace because of the preflop action, and he's putting me on a lower pair because of the flop action, etc.

I was brainstorming for ways to improve, and I was thinking that not applying 2nd and 3rd level thinking quickly at the table was one factor that was holding me back. It's also necessary to know on what level your opponent is thinking on, since thinking more than one level beyond that is just a waste of effort and would lead to FPS. But this leads me to a few more questions...

Does anyone have some hand examples of them employing multi-level thinking and exactly what they had in mind during the hand? How many 5/10 multitablers employ multilevel thinking on a consistent basis? What kind of actions clearly illustrate 3rd level thinking?

RunDownHouse · #10 09-23-2005, 04:30 PM

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Does anyone have some hand examples of them employing multi-level thinking and exactly what they had in mind during the hand?

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I guess I'll throw out a quick example: either 5/10 or 3/6, don't remember which.

I'm BB with 22. One bad limper to the button, who is something like 26/9 over more than 1000 hands. So far he's been playing like it, aggressive and showing down winners when he chooses to get involved. Button raises, so with the limper in there I tend to think its a legit hand. I've also been playing very well, and the way button has been getting out of the way mostly leads me to believe he's noticed I'm playing well.

Flop is something like 962r, harmless. I lead, limper calls, button raises. Now I'm pretty sure he's got a legit hand, but could always be overcards or something. I just call, limper calls.

Turn pairs the 9. I lead again. Here, I figure that, since the button knows I'm playing well, I would probably count on him for a flop bet and would try to c/r any pair on the flop, in order to drive out the bad limper. So there's a good chance he's putting me on anything other than turned trips. If he's got an overpair, he'll likely raise me again. Limper calls, button raises. I 3bet, both call. Button now probably knows he's toast.

River is a blank, I bet, limper folds, button calls and mucks his aces.

Sorry for the brag post, but I felt pretty good about my play on the turn, and that my read was right and he wasn't just raising the flop with overs. I was thinking on the 2nd (3rd? whatever) level, and I was pretty happy about it. I was 3-tabling at the time, fwiw.