Boxing Freak Show

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It is my firm opinion that he should have been required to wear a muzzle for all matches subsequent to that infamous bout.

[John Feeney]

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My own vision of the ultimate martial art would be a combination of Kickboxing, Thai boxing, and Grappling/submission holds. All distance ranges are thereby covered.

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From what I hear, that's pretty much what the better MMA/UFC type guys do now. Despite the emphasis some of us have put on grappling, the best of those guys have now become proficient in the stand up skills as well. I still think the grappling is the core requirement, but in order to get an edge the best fighters had to develop in other areas too. That way, a decent grappler who was good at punching, elbows, etc., could try to create opportunities to force another grappler, less skilled in those things, into moments of standup fighting where he might dominate and make some headway. So I guess you now occasionally get two decent grapplers, neither of whom feels he has much edge on the other on the ground, but who both have stand up skills and will go at each other with kick boxing for much of the fight. Get Tyson highly trained in grappling with submissions and chokes and you've got a monster.


I'll bet the part of karate that bored you was the forms and such. The sparring is a lot of fun, though some schools don't emphasize it.

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Don't know much about Jeet Kune Do but I would hesitate to underestimate it.

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Jeet Kune Do is great stuff! In theory, nothing tops it, since it includes everything that's at all effective. Bruce...err... Mr. Lee was way ahead of his time. Had he lived, I think he'd have veered heavily into the grappling stystems, even though he did fool around with them some when he was alive. (No one in the U.S. had ever heard of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the early '70s!) I think its practicioners today do work a lot more grappling, though I suspect they ought to do so even more. That said, its practicioners vary a lot in what they emphasize, since JKD is really more an approach or a philosophy than a style. Some, I think, are very good on the ground. I don't know why it never occurred to me to go to college in L.A. so I could train at Dan Inosanto's school. That would have been like a pilgrimage to mecca for me. Well, I was probably getting more into the sport side of karate by then.

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Also I have heard from a couple of black belts in Kung Fu that Kung Fu takes by far the longest to get a black belt in

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I suspect it varies a lot. There's no standardization or regtulation in the martial arts.

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but at the highest levels it is the most powerful martial art.

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You hear that kind of thing, but I've never seen proof of it. Not one kung fu guy has ever entered and won anything like the UFC, even when it was virtually rule free. And I do know that at least a few kung fu guys *have* challenged Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys in their schools, and the latter have cleaned up. However, you'll always hear, "Well, those weren't real masters, those were relative beginners, etc." But all there is to go on is what you can see, and what the kung fu guys claim, but seem to keep secret and behind closed doors. I have lots of doubt, though I wouldn't *totally* discount it. In China, where it's a long tradition, there may be some guys who would mop up the floor with top UFC fighter. But I'd like to see them prove it just once. I mean, I'd bet on any half way decent kick boxer over a kung fu guy any day. In fact, my own experience sparring them was that they had very little to worry me. Not that even at my best I'd have rushed to Hong Kong to challenge the most revered Sil Lum or Wing Chun
master. I just never saw any real proof of their rumored abilites.

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I have also heard that Tae Kwon Do is the quickest to get a black belt in.

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Probably true statistically, but there again it varies greatly. Many of the top tournament fighters of the past came from TKD or similar styles. Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis both, I think, first trained in TKD (actually Tang Soo Do for Norris - but it's basically the same thing) in the service in Korea. Others like Howard Jackson and Roy Kurban (very big names in the early 70s) all came out of TKD backgrounds. Like most things, it just depends on the specific school and instructors. And the bottom line is that the belt means far less than the individual.


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Also, I think reaction time is critically important and a generally underestimated factor.

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Yep, that and speed in general are a very big factor in both stand up fighting and grappling (if I remember my wrestling accurately). As a tangent, in karate sparring there are a few little moves that create an illusion of speed in the sense that the footwork involved gets you in on an opponent before he can respond, making you *seem* exceedingly fast. Howard Jackson used to be the master of this way of "bridging the gap." I believe he actually learned the technique from Chuck Norris, but he certainly perfected it and totally dominated a lot of fighters with it. When I finally learned it, it provided a *very* powerful tool in my repertoir. That technique isn't really a factor though when you move from tournament style fighting to kick boxing. Heh, in college I wrote a paper, "Speed Enhancement for Tournament Karate." Got an independent study credit for that! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Interesting stuff.

And I'm sure you agree there's a good reason why Tyson won't agree to UFC rules. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[MMMMMM]

I bounced those rumors regarding Kung Fu and TKD off you because I simply don't know and have my doubts too, though I wouldn't rule it out.

I found a few moderately interesting web sites on JKD some time back, didn't save them...and if I recall correctly, Googling it produced a number of fairly useless links too.

Yes, if Tyson could be trained in grappling and get good at it, he could probably become a monster. But could he? He's not young anymore and look what happened when Michael Jordan tried baseball [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Also I found learning boxing extremely unnatural after having so long been accustomed to grappling. It wouldn't surprise me if a pure boxer were to find grappling to have a very unnatural feel, too. So someone like Tyson learning the moves should be possible, but developing that instinctive-type feel for it might prove too elusive--who knows.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I'd happily lay you 10:1 on a $100 bet that Royce Gracie, Ken or Frank Shamrock, or Dan Severn (amoungst others) would beat mike tyson if they were to fight with UFC rules.

al

[Jedi Poker]

From what I've heard, Tyson has been training in submission grappling with former UFC light-heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz for the past year and a half. Now, I don't know what level he has reached as far as his grappling skills are concerned, but all he really needs to know is how to stop "shoots"/takedowns, sprawl, and then some knee stiking expertise (from Thai boxing) to avoid getting the fight on the ground and getting it back to "punching range". And if he can learn the jujitsu "guard", he can survive long enough on the ground for the referee to order a "re-start" to get the fight back to stand up again.

What Tyson must do is to limit his fights to opponents who weigh less than 230 lbs. And if possible, he should avoid good kickers that can grapple well like Bas Rutten or Marco Ruas. He will have too much of a disadvantage against these types of fighters as he will be beat with long-range kicks while on his feet. And of course these guys can pick their spots as to when they can choose to take him down for maximum advantage on the ground.

[MMMMMM]

Interesting.

By the way, I have always intuitively felt that there is often more going on intellectually in a wrestling or judo match than in a striking contest. I could certainly be wrong, but might it be that Tyson wouldn't have the mental agility to grapple well against opponents who would be rather well-matched against him otherwise?

[Ulysses]

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From what I've heard, Tyson has been training in submission grappling with former UFC light-heavyweight champion Tito Ortiz

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A little not-all-that-famous person sighting tangent. I was at the Hard Rock last year for the World Fighting Alliance event (a UFC rip-off w/ many of the same fighters) and Tito Ortiz had a few of his guys fighting there. Kimo was one of the top guys who fought on that card. Anyway, the fighting was pretty good with some vicious injuries. Some disturbing closeups on the video screens of broken bones and dislocated joints. And one very good example of why leaving the ground for a kick is not the greatest idea in a UFC-style match.

So, after all this, I'm out playing blackjack and Tito Ortiz comes over and starts playing. One of his Team Punishment guys who was on the card was also playing at the table. Both were really nice guys, but it was pretty strange to be playing with these guys and being in the casino swarming with tons of hardcore fighter guys. All of these guys had huge posses/teams. Combine all that testosterone, all those egos, all those different teams/factions, and a lot of alcohol, and I'm surprised there were no fights/disturbances of any type that night. That would have been quite the rumble.

[Jedi Poker]

You gotta realize that most of these guys are real athletes and sincere martial artists that live by the "warrior spirit". They are very disciplined people who don't need to prove their toughness outside the ring. They may not look like it but if you've seen the movie The Last Samurai, these guys have pretty much the same attitudes. Kimo is a Christian preacher. Tito Ortiz, Frank Shamrock, and others do a lot of charity work. Royce Gracie and Dan Severn have never been in street fights.

Also, unlike boxers, many of the UFC guys are college educated. Carlos Newton in psycholinguistics. One top Brazilian guy is a lawyer. Couture, Severn, Frye, Coleman and many others are college graduates and have worked as coaches in universities. Heck, Tank Abott has either a Bachelors or a Masters in History!

[Jedi Poker]

Mike Tyson is regarded as one of the premier boxing historians in the world. He can remember the records of fighters who fought in the 1920s. He can recall how a certain title changed hands back in the early 1900s, and who fought for a certain title back in the 1940s and what tactics the victor used to win that fight. In addition, while he was in jail he read a lot of books. From Mao to Malcolm X to the Koran, Das Kapital, and the Bible.

In short, Tyson is a good student. Now, if he seriously takes up a new skill (like grappling for example), chances are he will be able to absorb that discipline very effectively. His problems have all been as a result of dysfunctional emotional management, not necessarily of lack of intelligence. I'm convinced that there is a chemical problem in there. But I would be willing to bet that he has high IQ and therefore good learning capacity.

And I agree with you that grappling is a lot more intellectual than striking. That's why it is much bigger in Japan (oftentimes with as much as 90,000 people in the audience) than in the United States. Us Americans just want to see injuries and blood. The Japanese, on the other hand, like to watch technique. This is why a lot of fights there are very silent. People are paying attention to the techniques not on whether another guy is about to be unconscious. I doubt they even notice the blood. But here in the US, its about blood and beer.

[MMMMMM]

Well, whatever Tyson may have studied, whenever he opens his mouth he still manages to sound like a real dope--and a crude one at that.. He might really be bright, as you suggest, but I rather doubt it.

Glad to hear that someone agrees with my perception that grappling is more interesting than striking.

Quarterstaff looks very interesting but might be a tad risky;-) I used to sometimes carry, and exercise with, a quarterstaff which I made from a sapling, but never used it in anything resembling a bout;-)

Fencing always looked interesting and fun, but I never had the chance to try it.