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  #1  
Old 10-18-2005, 09:08 PM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

1. When you're playing 4-6 handed and are in the BB, what unpaired hands are worth 3 betting against a non-steal raise? I usually have been 3betting any hand I feel has equity against his range, but I feel that some of my 3bets are incorrect becuase the equity advantage is too little compared to positional disadvantage (obviously this is soemthing I should of figured out in ring game play too, but it happened much less). Is there any formula to calculate what range you should 3 bet vs his range of openers?

2. When you open raise and only get called by the BB, SB, and/or both;

Under what conditions would you check behind on the flop holding overcards that include an ace?
Under what conditions would you bet the flop and check the turn?
Under what conditions would you lead both for the free showdown?

3. This is a question I feel stupid before even asking. Should you/how often check behind on the turn and/or river against a tight caller who is also super passive and will c/c even with TPGK or 2p?
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  #2  
Old 10-19-2005, 12:43 AM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

This thread while not that interesting could use at least 1 meaningful reply, c'mon.
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  #3  
Old 10-19-2005, 01:20 AM
ArturiusX ArturiusX is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

This is way to situational. There is no hard and fast guide to this stuff.

Post hands.
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  #4  
Old 10-19-2005, 01:24 AM
Robk Robk is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

as a general comment it seems that youre being too formulaic in your thinking. even if you learn the "right" answers to these questions, using that strategy wont get you that big of an edge. you need to tailor your play to the exact situation at hand to get a big edge at shorthanded poker.

[ QUOTE ]
1. When you're playing 4-6 handed and are in the BB, what unpaired hands are worth 3 betting against a non-steal raise? I usually have been 3betting any hand I feel has equity against his range, but I feel that some of my 3bets are incorrect becuase the equity advantage is too little compared to positional disadvantage (obviously this is soemthing I should of figured out in ring game play too, but it happened much less). Is there any formula to calculate what range you should 3 bet vs his range of openers?

[/ QUOTE ]

equity is only one factor to be considered here. i feel like an idiot posting this over and over, but you have to consider how the hand is going to play out postflop. will your opponent be intimidated by your 3 bet and fold easily/ play passively? will he call down big cards to the river because the pot is big? will your reraise change how he plays a pair on the flop/ turn? if an ace comes will he fold the flop with no pair/ no draw? will it stop him from bluffing later in the hand? how will it affect his semibluffing frequency etc. and you can ask similar questions about how he plays when you dont reraise. a lot of these questions depend heavily on your image and his. then you relate all that back to the type of hand you have, not just your equity.

[ QUOTE ]
2. When you open raise and only get called by the BB, SB, and/or both;

Under what conditions would you check behind on the flop holding overcards that include an ace?
Under what conditions would you bet the flop and check the turn?
Under what conditions would you lead both for the free showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is such a complicated question that saying anything about it would almost be pointless. 3rd st almost always bet. 4th st heads up you should be a decent favortite to bet, but not every time. 3 way check more often depending on who/what youre against. dont forget to bluff 5th some % of the time, dont always take the free showdown.

[ QUOTE ]
3. This is a question I feel stupid before even asking. Should you/how often check behind on the turn and/or river against a tight caller who is also super passive and will c/c even with TPGK or 2p?

[/ QUOTE ]

its a tough question because him being tight makes you inclined to check, but him being passive makes you inclined to bet. its heavily flop dependant (especially how many draws are out) and also depends on how hell play the river after you check or bet on 4th.
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  #5  
Old 10-19-2005, 03:26 AM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

1. My first question doesn't need to be that complicated. To simplify it lemme post it this way. All other factors being equal, against an equally skilled opponent, how much equity advantage is neccessary to make 3 betting the correct play.


I realize this can become severely complicated if you try to factor in how passive or aggressive he is postflop, and I know this question becomes almost meaningless if you don't factor this in. THe entire point of my question was to determine if certain hands that are mild to moderate favorites gain more by being passive and deceptive against an aggressive opponent than simply getting in a little more when you only have a small edge.



2. I know this is a question that can't bet answered without a lot of analysis. If someone could simply list the top 5 factors that swing them towards each line it would be very helpful.


3. I guess I'm mixed up about this as well. I feel like when I'm being aggressive and he calls, I'm am probably not betting for value except with my greatest hands. The only advantage I've found is that I can get a lot of free cards from him and if I draw out with them I usually get paid off better than usual. I assume there must be much better ways to take advantage of his passivity.
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  #6  
Old 10-19-2005, 03:38 AM
TStoneMBD TStoneMBD is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

2.:

these things are so hard to answer without more details. these situations are also so difficult. there are alot of factors and to cover would take alot of time.

however, here are some thoughts:

if you openraise and the BB calls, flop comes and its a drawless rainbow flop with a Q+ card as the high card, if you bet and the BB calls what hands could he possibly have other than a pair? unfortunately, some players would peel this flop with ace high even against an EP raise where they have little chance of being ahead and then they donk the river after you check the turn.

this is why i like to take notes the way i do with the whole "pfft, pftfr, pfft ahf" system. i think it makes these situations so much easier to handle.

there are sometimes when i know that the opponent is not folding to a flop bet just because hes a chasing maniac. knowing that, i would only bet the flop if i have showdown value and good pot equity or i have free card value with some form of a draw. if i went on a steal with 67s and the flop came down 9TJ and i know the villain isnt going anywhere ill just give up. likewise with K5 on a 89T board.

even if i think my king high is ahead at this point betting the flop is likely pissing away money. if i bet and he autocalls as he always does, and i check the turn, if he is the type to bluff the river as most of them are i just gave him my money on the flop. i cant take king high to the showdown on this board unless i improved. betting the flop with no folding equity without showdown value is probably a poor thing to do.
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2005, 04:11 AM
Robk Robk is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

[ QUOTE ]
1. My first question doesn't need to be that complicated. To simplify it lemme post it this way. All other factors being equal, against an equally skilled opponent, how much equity advantage is neccessary to make 3 betting the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you ask it this way, then any equity advantage means you should 3 bet. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
THe entire point of my question was to determine if certain hands that are mild to moderate favorites gain more by being passive and deceptive against an aggressive opponent than simply getting in a little more when you only have a small edge.


[/ QUOTE ]

my point is that to answer this question, you need a way to quantify what you gain "by being passive and deceptive against an aggressive opponent". and doing that means answering all those tricky postflop questions. (or at least the most important ones.)


[ QUOTE ]
If someone could simply list the top 5 factors that swing them towards each line it would be very helpful.


[/ QUOTE ]

some important factors are: the number of opponents, the pot size, your (relative) hand strength, your opponents hand range based on the action so far, how vulnerable your hand is to free cards, your opponents semibluffing/bluffing frequency, how your opponent will play the river if you check/bet the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
3. I guess I'm mixed up about this as well. I feel like when I'm being aggressive and he calls, I'm am probably not betting for value except with my greatest hands. The only advantage I've found is that I can get a lot of free cards from him and if I draw out with them I usually get paid off better than usual. I assume there must be much better ways to take advantage of his passivity.

[/ QUOTE ]

yah you do seem a bit mixed up here. but thats ok, its not an easy game. when you bet the turn youre getting immediate odds of 3+ :1 to win the pot right there. so figure out what percentage of the time you need to win right there to break even. its not that high to begin with. then factor in the chance youre betting the best hand and win unimproved on the river, the chance you improve to the winner on the river, etc. and that % you need to pick it up goes down further. like i said these chances have a lot to do with the nature of the board. of course thats not to say that checking is never better. but its wrong to say that you cant bet if youre a dog when called.
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2005, 04:23 AM
Alex/Mugaaz Alex/Mugaaz is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)



"Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If someone could simply list the top 5 factors that swing them towards each line it would be very helpful.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



some important factors are: the number of opponents, the pot size, your (relative) hand strength, your opponents hand range based on the action so far, how vulnerable your hand is to free cards, your opponents semibluffing/bluffing frequency, how your opponent will play the river if you check/bet the turn."


Oh come on. This is not what I meant and you know it. There is no need to be this condescending. I asked to rate what are the TOP factors for each decision. For instance I'm assuming the bet, check, fold/check line is best against
1. ultra passive
2. people with ultra high WTSD
3. people who never bluff the river
4. tight players
5. people who still call when its obvious theyre beat
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  #9  
Old 10-19-2005, 05:09 AM
Robk Robk is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

i wasnt being condescending. i didnt know what you meant and im still not sure i do. sorry for misunderstanding.
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2005, 05:21 AM
JackThree JackThree is offline
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Default Re: Ring game player poppin his cherry questions (low quality)

jesus you guys are nice
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