Three hands vs. same player, Super Monday

[schwza]

hand 1: i'd bet turn 100% of the time. most hands that calling the flop are calling the turn, and i want to build the pot. if he does have something like JJ/TT/QJ/QT, i don't want to give the 6-outer since he's probably not putting in much more if he does hit. i really don't see any argument for checking the turn.

on the river, i like the bet and i would call the raise. you only have to be good ~1/6 and i think you see a poorly played AJ enough to call.

i'd raise to 75 instead of 60 pre-flop, but that doesn't matter much at all.

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2-
Hero puts him on worse than middle set and raises (to 100 ish) to build the friggin pot

3-
This hand get cut off? Or did you want comments up until now? I think it's fine so long as you plan to dump it to most turn bets (and bet most turns if checked to). I don't hate a flop raise here either because things can get tricky.

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all that looks good.

[adanthar]

Hand 1:

1)AQ is not a factor at all because he'll almost certainly bet the turn for me.

2)If you bet the turn, and he raises, do you call? <font color="white">this is a rhetorical question, for crying out loud; rather than answering, think about it</font>

3)Having gotten to the river this way, I think it's a *clear* blocking bet vs. an unknown because a)if I'm not betting 200, I'm calling 400 and b)AJ checks behind a lot.

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Hand 2:

To make this clearer: obviously I have the best hand and will be raising, or occasionally calling, or whatever. What is important right now is putting him on a range. I want to know your plan (whether you raise or call) on almost any turn.

[schwza]

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Hand 1:

1)AQ is not a factor at all because he'll almost certainly bet the turn for me.



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um, okay, but that's one hand. villain open-limped from MP3 - AQ is not likely and all of the money is probably going in regardless of your line.

i'm more concerned with getting chips in against hands like Axs that will call bets on the turn while they're drawing almost dead but check behind.

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2)If you bet the turn, and he raises, do you call? <font color="white">this is a rhetorical question, for crying out loud; rather than answering, think about it</font>

3)Having gotten to the river this way, I think it's a *clear* blocking bet vs. an unknown because a)if I'm not betting 200, I'm calling 400 and b)AJ checks behind a lot.



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agreed, but you should call the tiny raise on the end.

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Hand 2:

To make this clearer: obviously I have the best hand and will be raising, or occasionally calling, or whatever. What is important right now is putting him on a range. I want to know your plan (whether you raise or call) on almost any turn.

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ugh. there are so many different ways the rest of the flop can develop and so many different cards that can come on the turn. why don't you give us the action for what happens after you raise (or call) the flop?

[EverettKings]

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Hand 2:

To make this clearer: obviously I have the best hand and will be raising, or occasionally calling, or whatever. What is important right now is putting him on a range. I want to know your plan (whether you raise or call) on almost any turn.

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I'll have a much better idea of his range after he reacts to my raise. The minbet could mean so many things that I'm almost ignoring it. It could be a draw, bottom pair, bottom set, top pair weak kicker, a million things. If he or someone else calls my raise their most likely hand is a good queen (AQ-KQ, Q9/Q6/96 from the blinds) or hearts (with or without a straight draw). In any case I'm betting a nonheart turn for 250 or so, and checking behind a heart turn intending to call most rivers that I don't boat (or bet if checked to).

But all in all there's just a lot to be seen after my flop raise that it really helps to see who does what and where before trying to get too technical with ranges.

Everett

[adanthar]

The turn action in the last two hands isn't that interesting (I filled up in one, BB overcalled in the other) so I'm more curious in what happens before that.

I also strongly disagree that his range is that large in Hand 2 and I'm disappointed that nobody except EK focused on it. Look at what we know about him:

1)He probably had a T in Hand 1, so we know he open limps speculative hands and might/might not go too far with them;

2)He limped this UTG and minbet a Q96, 2 suited board into 4 people.

I think that's a much narrower hand range and while it probably suggests a raise, you already know the outcome (he will call) before it happens. Nobody else behind you usually calls that action with less than AQ so you can pretty much ignore them (if they do, you push most turns and they call/fold/etc).

[gumpzilla]

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I think that's a much narrower hand range

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Much narrower than what? Flush draws, Q9, QT, AA, even 66 could all be played this way given a suitably fishy opponent, which isn't exactly a narrow range. While it's reasonable to think he'll call after minbetting if we raise, I don't think it's a given, and I don't think we can really put him on a very well-defined range at all, because I think it's clear that his thought processes are vague at best.

Inflating the pot seems like the way to go, because if he's not calling now, I don't see when he's going to call. He doesn't seem like the type to bet our hand for us, obviously. If the flush comes, I probably slow down and go into pot control mode, otherwise I just value bet the whole way and wait for the dinky river raise if he actually had a solid holding.

[EverettKings]

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1)He probably had a T in Hand 1, so we know he open limps speculative hands and might/might not go too far with them;


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I think we can all agree that this guy is limping lots of marginal/speculative stuff and possibly goes to far with top pair hands (likely AT in hand 1)

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2)He limped this UTG and minbet a Q96, 2 suited board into 4 people.


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To me this says "I have a marginalish one pair hand and want to see everyone react" OR "I have a draw and want to poke it along and somewhat control the betting". Because there are 3 Qs in the deck and one 9 (among other reasons) its most likely for him to have a Q-medium here. But since we know he can overplay it and is quite likely too passive to make any real bets for himself, we need to steadily build a pot to keep popping him for value. If you make it 100 here, bet 180 on the turn, and 260 on the river, he'll probably call down with his QJ if the board doesn't get too scary. And if he has a draw he's calling incorrectly and won't get paid off (since we can pretty safely fold if draws get there and he bets something meaningful).

Just calling the flop will not only allow others in with lots of crap with an out here and there, but it will also prevent us from gaining nice value bets from our donkey friend.

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you already know the outcome (he will call) before it happens.

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Anyone who minbets like that clearly does not think like we do and is capable of anything. I've seen guys minbet/minraise or minbet/fold or minbet/push or all kinds of stuff. I'd say he calls something like 60% of the time, folds 30%, and reraises 10%. So yeah he usually calls and thats what we expect but its not like its automatic.


In any case, against guys that appear donkish like that, its usually better to just play straight forward and let them make the mistakes for me instead of trying to figure out a fancy way to outplay them. I usually just end up outthinking myself.



Everett

[adanthar]

You're right, I should also have said 'or he'll fold'...but if he folds the hand is over/uninteresting (and if he pushes obviously we call).

We expect him to call and proceed as such because that is a)what he will most likely do and b)because we want to think further ahead than just 'hey I have the best hand so I raise'...and then get lost when a scare card comes. It's also important to raise the proper amount to control the pot vs. that hand range so that when a scare card does hit we're not priced in.

FWIW, in the actual hand I raised to 90.

[schwza]

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The turn action in the last two hands isn't that interesting (I filled up in one, BB overcalled in the other) so I'm more curious in what happens before that.

I also strongly disagree that his range is that large in Hand 2 and I'm disappointed that nobody except EK focused on it. Look at what we know about him:

1)He probably had a T in Hand 1, so we know he open limps speculative hands and might/might not go too far with them;

2)He limped this UTG and minbet a Q96, 2 suited board into 4 people.

I think that's a much narrower hand range and while it probably suggests a raise, you already know the outcome (he will call) before it happens. Nobody else behind you usually calls that action with less than AQ so you can pretty much ignore them (if they do, you push most turns and they call/fold/etc).

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raising is pretty cleary right on the flop. (if you disagree, say so, and we can talk about it). there is still an interesting decision on the turn once you fill. if you fill and he pushes the turn, then it's not a very interesting hand. so be it. i'm sorry, but this is not an interesting hand, at least at the the decision node that you've given us.

Hand 1...bet the turn pretty big
Hand 2...re-raise to 80
Hand 3...re-raise preflop, fold to a flop bet