Playing draws in Hold'em...

Malachii · #1 05-14-2005, 12:47 AM

My 45 hearts turned a double belly buster... I played my draw Brunson style, but I don't think Brunson style is particularly well suited to low stakes no limit since you almost never have any fold equity. Should I have just folded this one to the flop checkraise?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($28.25)
MP2 ($45.5)
MP3 ($20)
CO ($22.45)
Button ($8)
SB ($36.3)
BB ($17.1)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($29.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB calls $0.40, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB folds, UTG+1 raises to $8, Hero raises to $27.75 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $19.75.

Final Pot: $58.25

PoBoy321 · #2 05-14-2005, 12:49 AM

First of all, if you're going to bet your draws, you need to bet a little stronger than 1/3 pot. Secondly, after UTG+1's big check/raise, you really need to drop this because I think that you have 0 fold equity if you push.

Malachii · #3 05-14-2005, 12:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, if you're going to bet your draws, you need to bet a little stronger than 1/3 pot. Secondly, after UTG+1's big check/raise, you really need to drop this because I think that you have 0 fold equity if you push.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to fold anyone, I was trying to price myself into a cheap look at the next card. I agree with not having any fold equity on the push, it was a bad play on my part.

WSOPwinner10 · #4 05-14-2005, 12:54 AM

I don't hate the idea, but the fact that the odds were so steep after the check-raise makes it bad. you are basically getting 1:1 with no fold equity.

ABC7133 · #5 05-14-2005, 01:08 AM

Pick a better spot...at small stakes, you are not getting a huge range of hands to fold...

This is a much better play without the diamond draw there...

Also, if you are going to bet your draws, tou must bet them like a made hand

swolfe · #6 05-14-2005, 01:44 AM

fold preflop

you're in a family pot with a flush draw board and only 3 nut outs. this is not a draw to play aggressively.

if you're going to bet your draws, play them just like you'd play a set. to do otherwise means that you're going to be too transparent.

brunson style is to play draws aggressively with a good edge or deep stacks and implied odds. not shoving in as a huge underdog and hoping to suck out.

-Skeme- · #7 05-14-2005, 02:11 AM

Why hasn't anybody else other than swolfe told you to fold preflop? Ugh. If you want a fold, bet the pot. Getting all in here is crappy. At best you have 8 outs and no folding equity. Let's observe some scenarios for the range of hands Villain has. And this isn't Brunson style, lol. Brunson doesn't shove and pray, he rusn of weak-tights by playing draws super aggressively when there is a chance he'll get a fold. If you thought a guy raising 8x your bet was gonna fold, think again.

Hand 1: 28.7879 % [ 00.29 00.00 ] { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 71.2121 % [ 00.71 00.00 ] { Ad2d }

Hand 1: 29.7980 % [ 00.30 00.00 ] { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 70.2020 % [ 00.70 00.00 ] { 9d9c }

Hand 1: 24.1414 % [ 00.24 00.00 ] { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 75.8586 % [ 00.76 00.00 ] { 2h2d }

Hand 1: 30.1010 % [ 00.30 00.00 ] { 5h4h }
Hand 2: 69.8990 % [ 00.70 00.00 ] { 8s6c }

You aren't ahead of anything here at all and I dont see anything folding. Why put yourself in these situations?

spahk · #8 05-14-2005, 03:08 AM

there are times when you want to make big semi-bluffs with a draw. this wasn't one of them. the most important thing when you are thinking about making one of these plays is to remember that you are bluffing. the fact that you happen to have a draw is just a back-up, in case your opponent unexpectedly calls. that's it. make these moves when you honestly think that there is a good chance your opponent will fold.

double-gut draws are good calling hands, because they are difficult to read when they hit. pushing with one of these hands takes away one of the best features of a hand like this.

next time, try it with a flush draw and an overcard (or better yet, flush draw and a pair). and be the raiser, not the reraiser.

Malachii · #9 05-14-2005, 05:26 AM

Thank you everyone for the posts. I'm realizing that one of my big leaks in NL is that I overvalue draws tremendously.

Generally speaking (and I know I'm being very general!), what should my line be when I have flush and or straight draws out of position against multiple opponents? How valuable are open ended straight draws with little folding equity? Should they even be played out of position?

creedofhubris · #10 05-14-2005, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My 45 hearts turned a double belly buster... I played my draw Brunson style, but I don't think Brunson style is particularly well suited to low stakes no limit since you almost never have any fold equity. Should I have just folded this one to the flop checkraise?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

Hero ($28.25)
MP2 ($45.5)
MP3 ($20)
CO ($22.45)
Button ($8)
SB ($36.3)
BB ($17.1)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($29.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.5, Hero calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB calls $0.40, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, SB folds, UTG+1 raises to $8, Hero raises to $27.75 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $19.75.

Final Pot: $58.25

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Preflop is Ok, don't let them tell ya different.

2. Flop: You are wayyy out of position with lots of opponents. Just check and try to see a cheap card.

3. Once UTG+1's raise comes in you need to look at your odds. You have a 1/3 chance of making your hand by the river, you might lose to a full house if he has set, he's not going to fold if you come over the top. You are not getting 2:1 on a push or 5:1 to see another card. You must fold.