Limit O8 - Folding too much? Example #2

[jb9]

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Your flop decision should be either fold or raise (then fold to a third bet).

Why called the flop then folded the turn?

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I think you call the flop because you are getting 9 to 1 odds, you are closing the action, and some cards can help you on the turn (a 3 would be best, a T wouldn't be such a bad thing, and although it ruins the low draw A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] would improve chances for high).

You fold the turn because the J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] doesn't help, the SB's betting could mean he has the nut flush and was waiting to make sure the board didn't pair on the turn, the button might raise, you only have nut outs for the low, and you are only getting 6 to 1 odds (assuming you have a chance to scoop, which is assuming a lot...).

A fold on the flop wouldn't be terrible, but with so many players staying in and closing the action I would call. I don't think this hand is strong enough to raise on the flop (and I don't think rasing the flop gets anyone to fold anything you want folded since they've all called the 1st bet already).

Let me get this straight, I might have mis-read your post, but, you're folding the third nuts and the second nut low draw here? You have a two way hand. You cannot fold here on the turn, or the flop! Sometimes they'll show you the Ac 3c, but this is limit poker, if it was PL, I'd say yes, you can fold this hand to a huge turn bet, but dont fold a Q-high flush and the second nut low draw on this turn! If a 3 pops off on the river, you have the nut low and a high hand that only gets beat by two other high hands! Especially in a low-limit O8B game, you'll see players making raises here with a lot of hands besides the nuts. I think you need to see this river card every time in this spot. If you miss your low, and there is significant river action, you can drop, but I think this fold on the turn is -EV in a big way.



Tex

[donger]

I hate this fold, too. I think the SB's lead bet frequently means a low-draw with a turned pair, two pair, etc. He now likes his equity enough (since only a late position player bet the flop and nobody raised) to try betting back through the field.

In your shoes, I would start jamming with this hand. You might fold out the 2nd nut flush or other 2nd nut low draws.

Yeah, you might get carved up sometimes with a two-way non-nut hand like this, but [censored] happens. Folding is even worse.

[Buzz]

fep - I don't think you should fold the queen high flush plus the second nut low draw in a limit game. Not on the flop and not on the turn. I think you have to stand your ground.

One might make a case for not <font color="white">_</font>drawing for the queen high flush plus second nut low but once you already have it, I think you hang in there.

The question is whether to <font color="white">_</font>raise or not. (I think you probably do better, on the average, by not raising here).

Buzz

Thanks for the comments all. Lots of food for thought. In spite of my math contorsions, my opinion has changed to I shouldn't have folded this hand.

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Thanks for the comments all. Lots of food for thought. In spite of my math contorsions, my opinion has changed to I shouldn't have folded this hand.

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Nice to see someone who isnt always stubborn in his view point. By the way, dont be afraid to post more LO8 hands, this board is becoming too saturated with PL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Preflop- I think this is a great spot to raise with your A4QT, but a call is fine here. My raise/call ratio usually would be 70/30 in this type of spot.
Flop- You have the 3rd nuts for high, and the 2nd nut low draw for low. Not a terrific hand, but in the .50/1.00 O8 games this is a solid hand, certainly worth of calling a lone bet.
Turn- One player is gone, the pot is now 3-handed when you make your first decision. I think this is a great spot to raise. It is very hard for a lone player to have you scooped if a low card comes. I think your hand warrants a sort of "semi-bluff" here.

[benwood]

Pre-flop:The call is correct.I would not consider a raise unless the A were suited,&amp; even then the raise would be marginal.
Flop:After 4 players have checked &amp; 1 remaining,a bet is better than a check.You could easily have the best high hand.If someone else had a higher flush,he would have bet it to make the low draws &amp; trip/2pr hands pay to play.You should bet your 3rd nut flush/2nd nut low draw for the same reason.Underplaying your hand at this point will subject you to a guessing game on the turn.
Turn:Now you must guess since you can't tell "where you're at" because of your flop underplay.Is SB betting because he has the nut flush(unlikely) or because he thinks his set/top 2 pair is good because of the weakness shown on the turn.If button was betting a low draw,SB does'nt want to give him a free card.Since you have played it this way so far,the turn raise seems to be a good idea.Your hand is too good to fold.You get more EV from a raise than a call derived from value/thin field/free showdown.(What do you think,Buzz?)
Good luck to you. Ben

[Buzz]

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Flop:After 4 players have checked &amp; 1 remaining,a bet is better than a check.You could easily have the best high hand.If someone else had a higher flush,he would have bet it to make the low draws &amp; trip/2pr hands pay to play.You should bet your 3rd nut flush/2nd nut low draw for the same reason.Underplaying your hand at this point will subject you to a guessing game on the turn.

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Ben - I completely agree.

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Turn: ..... Your hand is too good to fold.....

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Absolutely!

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Now you must guess .....

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Yes.

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..... the turn raise seems to be a good idea. You get more EV from a raise than a call derived from value/thin field/free showdown. (What do you think,Buzz?)

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Whether to call or raise seems close to me. Hero's timing is off because (as you pointed out) of the missed bet on the flop.

Buzz