Hmm... I'm a little lost on this river...

DavidC · #1 10-16-2005, 01:17 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds.

River: (6 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

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Villain is passive.

I don't know if I like doing this here, because any spade looks good to him when I've been betting to the river, and I myself have a respectable spade, heads-up.

Still... I don't know what's best on this river: check-call, bet-call, or bet-fold...

--Dave.

numeri · #2 10-16-2005, 01:47 PM

I know Clarkmeister says bet the river with the 4-flush, but I think this one is a good check/call. I say that because of your earlier aggression and the good scare card here. Without a read, I think I call the raise as you played it. This is a great card for villain to bluff with a river raise.

Asim · #3 10-16-2005, 02:06 PM

david mentioned the opponent is passive... i would really expect that the opponent has a higher flush than you... passive ppl raise strong hands.. even possibly the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

#4 10-16-2005, 02:06 PM

Yea I think this is a bluff or a worse spade often enough to call it down.

It sucks that you have a middle spade. With a lower spade I would check call this and with a higher its clearly bet call. I am not so sure what to do with 8,9,10. I think however that you CANT fold this.

numeri · #5 10-16-2005, 02:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
david mentioned the opponent is passive... i would really expect that the opponent has a higher flush than you... passive ppl raise strong hands.. even possibly the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
No offense to the Supreme Nit, but "Villain is passive" is a pretty lame read. Does that mean he never bets without the nuts? Does he ever bluff? How tight is he? What hands will he call down with?

All I'm saying is that villain's passiveness does not mean that this card is still not a sweet bluff card vs. someone who's been betting all the way. In certain situations, I think you're right. If the answers to the previous questions are: yes, no, reasonable, only strong draws and/or made hands - then we can probably check/fold.

homebrewer · #6 10-16-2005, 02:15 PM

Ugh! Nasty river.

I want to show this hand down. If I'm willing to show down for 2 BBs, I bet. If not, check/call. I check/call here.

DavidC · #7 10-16-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
david mentioned the opponent is passive... i would really expect that the opponent has a higher flush than you... passive ppl raise strong hands.. even possibly the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

It'd require a pretty serious read to think that... like, I'd have to know specifically that my opponent was a Party Poker executive.

[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

droolie · #8 10-16-2005, 02:31 PM

Nice hand. I'm fine with the fold if your read was solid. A passive villian has a picture spade a huge percent of the time here.

IMO check calling kinda sucks here. Make him pay to showdown his weak A. He's only rasing a high or nut spade if he's remotely sane.

DavidC · #9 10-16-2005, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No offense to the Supreme Nit, but "Villain is passive" is a pretty lame read. Does that mean he never bets without the nuts? Does he ever bluff? How tight is he? What hands will he call down with?

All I'm saying is that villain's passiveness does not mean that this card is still not a sweet bluff card vs. someone who's been betting all the way. In certain situations, I think you're right. If the answers to the previous questions are: yes, no, reasonable, only strong draws and/or made hands - then we can probably check/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty tired right now, but I'll take a shot at this. You're right that looseness matters. The guy is 50/3/0.7 after maybe 40 hands. I didn't have reads, which is unfortunate.

A better question is: What should I do against different types of opponents here?

----

Vs an incredibly passive opponent, loose or tight, check-fold. Vs a thinking tag that knows you're a tag, bet. Vs a maniac, either check-call or bet-call, depending on just how maniacal he is. Vs a lag, check-call.

I think vs a standard fish you'd either check-call here or bet-fold. I'm leaning towards check-call, because this board and their passiveness when it comes to checking through with hands slightly better than ours may help.

The parameters that we have to use for every opponent type, and I guess every river decision, is:

A: % they will fold to a river bet
B: % they will call a river bet
C: % they will raise with a worse hand than ours
D: % they will call with a better hand than ours
E: % they will check through the river with a better hand than ours
F: % they will fold a better hand than ours

We can make some sort of formula using these %'s and say something like (this is random):

If A+B+C > D+2E+F then bet.

There's absolutely no way I'm attempting that right now (pretty exhausted). However, it looks promising.

So far, we've given them no reason to doubt that any flush card is good, so it's probably best ot check-call.

... I think I need to add some lines of magesty to that avatar of yours.

LoaferGee12 · #10 10-16-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

No offense to the Supreme Nit, but "Villain is passive" is a pretty lame read. Does that mean he never bets without the nuts? Does he ever bluff? How tight is he? What hands will he call down with?

[/ QUOTE ]

You aren't always gonna have strong reads like that and lots of times you'll have to play with a read like "passive".