My pocket KKs are losing - Page 3

#21 10-17-2005, 02:45 AM

Are you slow playing KK because it is such a good hand that you want other people to stick around? Then stop! KK has better chance of winning whne you are aggressive. Raise and Reraise no matter what preflop.

Always bet/raise an Ace high flop with three or less opponents. If opponents get aggressive back to you, then you can fold. But raising preflop then shutting down to an ace screams that you don't have one, and good and bad players will stab at you. You wont know where you stand. If the board is worse, such as all one suit or consecutive, then you ahouls still bet, but again, if someone gets aggressive you may not havet he best hand anymore.

Give us more info so we can see how you are playing. If you are losing with KK and it is not simple statistical variance, then it should be easy for one of these posters to figure it out. How are you doing with AA, QQ?

bakku · #22 10-17-2005, 02:50 AM

elindauer · #23 10-17-2005, 02:55 AM

Since we're talking about KK, check out how I played KK one time today:

I'm UTG and limp in. 2 players limp in behind me. The SB completes, the BB checks.

5 to the flop for 5 SB:

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

The BB bets out. I fold.

That's right. KK for a 1 SB loss. I bet there are more than a few players that have never lost so little with the 2nd nuts!

It's rare that I get that happy-to-have-lost-so-little feeling in poker, but this time was one of them.

Anyways, on your post. Get passive when aces hit. Check-raise a lot to limit the field. 3-bet preflop when you have the chance. Don't ever fold heads up. You'll be fine.

On another note, the fact that you are asking this question suggests that you have much to learn about poker. Small Stakes Hold 'Em would be an excellent book to memorize if you haven't already.

good luck.
eric

elindauer · #24 10-17-2005, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Next time you get KK type "I HAVE KK" when you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
And everyone with Ax will call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] (which, needless to say is a good thing)

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? I happen to have done the math on this and humbly suggest that anyone calling with Ax is probably costing you money, provided you do not plan to check and fold an ace high flop.

good luck.
Eric

elindauer · #25 10-17-2005, 03:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Always bet/raise an Ace high flop with three or less opponents. If opponents get aggressive back to you, then you can fold. But raising preflop then shutting down to an ace screams that you don't have one, and good and bad players will stab at you. You wont know where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't it be a good thing to induce bluffs? Why would you want to bet and raise on a flop where you are either way ahead or way behind, when you can check and pick off bluffs without risking being outplayed?

#26 10-17-2005, 03:33 AM

I'm rooting for playing KK more basically when a player is systematically below expectation. I wanted to keep my advice simple, but you're right.

Let's get the Kings winning again first and figure out where the problem is, then let's get fancier and more optimal. (Assuming there is a problem and not random bad luck)

#27 10-17-2005, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Get passive when aces hit.

eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your advice but I think this statement needs discussion. With one or two opponents or perhaps three opponents, I'd say bet if checked to, to force opponents to provide info. Often enough you'll win the pot, or can fold to a raise; or, if you are called, have better judgement even if your next decision isn't perfectly certain (when in doubt, get passive when you bet the Ace high flop and get called because people like to carry aces).

#28 10-17-2005, 03:48 AM

"Always bet/raise an Ace high flop with three or less opponents. "

I rescind the "/raise" part. That is tricky; it requires knowledge of your opponents. If there are are three opponents and the first one bets the ace high flop, for example, folding is best if you don't have evidence to suspect the better is often F.O.S.

private joker · #29 10-17-2005, 04:13 AM

I treat a lot of A-high flops like WA/WB hands and play them like this:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 raises, 1 fold, MP3 3-bets, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 caps, MP3 calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and eights).
MP1 has Js Jh (two pair, jacks and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB. 

That was me extracting the most when I was ahead.

This is me losing the least when I'm drawing totally dead:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, MP1 folds, Hero caps, MP3 calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

River: (8.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.20 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and threes).
MP3 has Ad Ac (full house, aces full of threes).
Outcome: MP3 wins 10.20 BB. 

(You can argue that bet/folding the turn loses the least, but I like showing this hand down heads-up in this situation).

When it's not heads-up, I can find folds that get me out of the hand much cheaper:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Button calls, Hero folds.

Turn: (7.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Button calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Jh Qd (two pair, queens and jacks).
Button has As 8d (one pair, aces).
Outcome: CO wins 9.50 BB. 

In my last 100 occurrences of KK, I've won 2.78BB/hand with them, and this is how.

crunchy1 · #30 10-17-2005, 08:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since we're talking about KK, check out how I played KK one time today:
I'm UTG and limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really need to qualify this with a limit and general idea of how tough the game is. If it's not from a high-limit game with good, thinking players - I think limping KK UTG sucks!