KK Flops Everything But in Multiway Pot

[aces_dad]

We 'may' have the best hand and given 6 opponents should be ahead often enough to have equity vs our bet.

On the turn I'm hoping for a 10 more than a K and if the K comes trying to get the river re-draw for a boat relatively cheaply.

[PokerSparky]

This pot is already too big to not bet here IMO. There's a chance (not so great) that you have the best hand. If someone raises behind you, they may get a Ten or a King to fold.

[Eeegah]

[ QUOTE ]
This pot is already too big to not bet here IMO. There's a chance (not so great) that you have the best hand. If someone raises behind you, they may get a Ten or a King to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what the pot size has to do with our betting here. We're not protecting our hand much since even three outers would have odds to call unless we're checkraised early, and if we are we have bigger problems. If anything the 15SB in the pot works against us here, especially since all it is at this point is preflop cash and thus just represents the number of opponents to the flop.

I still think we can bet for value, but we could do so if the pot were 2SB or 20SB. I don't have Stove right now and am too lazy to grab it, but I think we should still be ahead here more than 1/6 of the time or so.

[aces_dad]

I agree with this and posted to your reply earlier in this thread.

Also I'm not crazy about turning a K except for the re-draw to a river boat, the 10 is the turn card I most want to see.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This pot is already too big to not bet here IMO. There's a chance (not so great) that you have the best hand. If someone raises behind you, they may get a Ten or a King to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get what the pot size has to do with our betting here. We're not protecting our hand much since even three outers would have odds to call unless we're checkraised early, and if we are we have bigger problems. If anything the 15SB in the pot works against us here, especially since all it is at this point is preflop cash and thus just represents the number of opponents to the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot size is important because there's enough money to make a fuss over it. You need to clear out some of the field here to give yourself more equity. You win here much more often in a 3-way pot than you do in a 5-way pot. Folding out those 2 extra players for a single small bet is a big gain.

Here are some pokerstove numbers:
--------------------------------------------------
Board: Ah Qs Jd
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.3213 % [ 00.27 00.03 ] { KhKd }
Hand 2: 11.6369 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 3: 11.5770 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 4: 11.5446 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 5: 11.7110 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 6: 11.5687 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
Hand 7: 11.6405 % [ 00.10 00.02 ] { random }
-----------------------------------------------------
Now against 4 players:
Board: Ah Jd Qs
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 44.3745 % [ 00.42 00.03 ] { KhKd }
Hand 2: 13.8748 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 13.9179 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 13.9093 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 13.9236 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { random }
------------------------------------------------------
The approximately 15% gain in equity translates to 2.25 small bets. I admit that these are random hands, but the basic premise stays the same. Against one pair hands worse than yours, you don't want to give up a free card even though they have odds to call. For the rest of the junk hands, you don't want them to pick up the first card to a backdoor flush draw (or runner-runner two pair/trips) and steal a chunk of equity from you when they would fold for a single bet. You don't mind them folding out correctly because you win at showdown more often as a result. (And you don't care if they call incorrectly because you win more money that way.) For the players who will call correctly... meh... you can't always induce errors.

[smoovee]

the only way i can see to bet is to try grab position and hope to get a freecard or to showdown as cheaply as possible. i dont see how anyone w/any ace will fold as this pot is too big.

Bet it. Sure people play a lot of Aces, but you can't just assume someone has one and even if the A is out you can still get the turn checked to you if someone as Awk. Your hand might be the best and you want to buy the button so you can get a free card on the turn to draw to your 5 outer. If everyone checks the turn, I'd check behind and call a river bet.