When to fold Ace high?

handsome · #1 06-30-2005, 12:03 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Villain is fairly loose preflop. Postflop I dunno. I felt fairly disgusted after this hand. When I was playing it, I wasn't sure if I should've called down or folded earlier.. and by the river I knew I couldn't beat anything but a bluff. Insight?

JJH3984 · #2 06-30-2005, 12:11 AM

does anyone else bet this turn? I see no indication that you are behind here. I bet and fold to a raise.

handsome · #3 06-30-2005, 12:14 AM

In hindsight I think that line would be best. I think check-folding would've been better than my line and I probably took the worst route by check-calling. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Redd · #4 06-30-2005, 12:15 AM

IMHO I'd bet the turn too, especially after picking up some straight outs. But I'm betting because I think you've got a good chance of getting the pot right there.

HajiShirazu · #5 06-30-2005, 12:18 AM

On the turn it's either bet or check fold, with the two options being pretty close. I don't think your outs are good enough to make a call worth it here, you would pretty much need almost the full 10 to call. The exception is if you thought he might check behind a worse hand on the river sometimes (unlikely) or if you thought he might be bluffing often enough to make calls on both streets profitable (not all that likely on this board IMO.) In any case if you were going to call anyway, you would be better off just betting, which is what I usually would end up doing, folding to a raise, but check-fold isn't that bad here, this board hits a ton of cold caller hands.

SackUp · #6 06-30-2005, 12:29 AM

I think this is an easy bet on the turn. I initially thought an easy fold to a c/r but then again we are getting 7.5 to 1 to call the turn raise so I think my play would really need to be player dependent looking at home many outs I really have here. We only need 6 outs for the call to be correct so if we get 4k's, 3 A's and 3 Q's then it is obviously easy, but we probably don't have that many clean outs. Not sure if we can get 6 though. 3.5 K's 1.5 for A's and 1.5 for Q's?

Are all 4 kings good? Any of the Aces or Q's? Would this guy raise a flush draw? Would he raise a pair of 10's? Does he have an OESD? I think I might be able to justify a call with a really agressive player who would raise more than just trips. Thoughts?

Oh and check the river UI after a bet on the turn.

TRWIII · #7 06-30-2005, 12:36 AM

I'd bet the turn for three related reasons:

1) you have a decent (though not spectacular chance of having the best hand)

2) villain hasnt shown too much interest in his holding so far

and

3) a turn bet only has to induce a fold 18% of the time (though I'd adjust it up to around 25% to account for a possible raise) to be immediately profitable. I think a turn bet would cause a fold a good deal more often than that. How often depends on the opponent, but it wouldnt surprise me if it was over 50%.

I think you can comfortably fold to a turn raise if thats what occurs.

As for the river if you're called, if you think your opponents capable of taking a shot with a worse hand (which is a whole lot of PP 2/4 players from my experience) Id check-call. This really depends on how your opponent plays on the river, though against an unknown I'd check call.

As always I appreciate any feedback on my reasoning.

TRWIII