Two Preflop Cold Calls (Yikes)

[sthief09]

I'm curious what others think about the river in hand 1. I don't value bet enough, so I'm probably not the person who should be commenting on that. I think the flop raise in hand 1 is ok since the pot isn't all that big. if it was the same situation but it went 3 bets preflop, it's a classic wait for the turn situation (although if you 3-bet preflop and the original PFR didn't cap but led the turn, I'd be pretty worried about QQ/JJ). I think the pot is small enough to make hands like QJ fold.

[twankerr]

I think you value bet the river in hand 1. The only person who has done anything but call is UTG+1 and that flop bet was pretty automatic given his pre-flop raise. I think he calls with A-face enough to warrant the value bet. Now if he had just checked the flop, I think the value bet would have no use. Am I wrong?

[jayrutz2]

[ QUOTE ]
what I'm saying though is:

[preflop equity gained by 3-betting preflop] ~ [postflop EV you give up by 3-betting preflop (ie the cost of giving your opponents odds to draw to anything)]

[/ QUOTE ]


Assuming that anyone understanding drawing odd, which they probably want...

[Joe Tall]

First: There is no folding preflop with either hand here. One debate could be made for not 3-betting TT on the button but with such a huge family pot brewing, I like your position and the call. The rest of hand#2 is fine, well played.

The real debate is about the post-flop play in hand #1 and I think a better line would be to raise a turn blank. However, the caller between you and PFR complicates things as he could easily have the T and likes to call, because that's what he does. A river value you bet is super-thin but needs to be made, AK may call on a board like this.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what I'm saying though is:

[preflop equity gained by 3-betting preflop] ~ [postflop EV you give up by 3-betting preflop (ie the cost of giving your opponents odds to draw to anything)]

[/ QUOTE ]


Assuming that anyone understanding drawing odd, which they probably want...

[/ QUOTE ]


no, that's not true at all. your opponents will probably call regardless of whether they're getting odds to. when you bloat the pot you're making their postflop looseness correct. by keeping it smaller, you're leading them to make mistakes, like drawing to a naked A. they don't need to have an understanding of odds for this.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you value bet the river in hand 1. The only person who has done anything but call is UTG+1 and that flop bet was pretty automatic given his pre-flop raise. I think he calls with A-face enough to warrant the value bet. Now if he had just checked the flop, I think the value bet would have no use. Am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

my question is what are they cold calling with on a T32r board?

[sthief09]

can you explain why you like the call preflop in the first hand?

[Joe Tall]

can you explain why you like the call preflop in the first hand?

If you can get another caller out of the blinds, say, it's +EV. I call w/88 and lesser PPs in loose multi-way-games.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
can you explain why you like the call preflop in the first hand?

If you can get another caller out of the blinds, say, it's +EV. I call w/88 and lesser PPs in loose multi-way-games.

[/ QUOTE ]


for set value alone? because I don't think the hand has all that much pair value in this spot

[Joe Tall]

for set value alone?

Well, no, you do have little pair value more than 22-66.

Peace,
Joe Tall