Stupid, stupid stupid

Percula · #1 10-12-2004, 01:46 PM

OK here is the height of stupid on my part. This is the $3 rebuy to the PS Sunday $250K. I have been at the same table the whole time, never moved once, and most of the players on the table have been here with me the whole time, minus a few I busted out that didn't rebuy. I come out of the rebuy/add-on in 4th, would have been first but for a couple of stacks taking the add-on. A few hands after the break I get a fish all-in with his A7o against my AKo on a TPTK hand and take 1st again.

I have been playing TAG, very aggressive post flop. I haven't shown down one bad hand, I took a couple of bad beats, but showed that I was only playing top hands. The rest of the table was pretty, well "not so good" playing lots of TP weak kicker, any ace type poker. I was in command of the table.

So what do I do instead of switching gears to conservitive mode, stealing to stay ahead of the blinds and only committing a significant percentage of my stack when I am way ahead and know it? I get greedy...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 (t9550)
CO (t8475)
Button (t14223)
SB (t3725)
BB (t8235)
Hero (t27032)
UTG+1 (t13025)
MP1 (t4345)
MP2 (t10745)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t450, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t450, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t450, CO folds, Button calls t450, SB folds, BB calls t300.

These guys know from my raise that I have a good hand. I was rather surprised I got as many callers as I did, but thinking back, they where likely thinking steal or had not completely switched from rebuy mode. I think I should have raised more from UTG to say T1000 or so.

Flop: (t2325) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1500, MP1 calls t1500, MP3 folds, Button raises to t4200, BB folds, Hero calls t2700, MP1 calls t2395 (All-In).

Turn: (t14620) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets t1500, Button raises to t9573, Hero calls t8073.

I knew I was beat here, that he had the 4. I went ahead and called with the implied odds of hitting the nut flush and having an overwhelming lead to the point I could have sat out the rest of the tournament and got a seat. But NO I had to get stupid! There was no need to risk it.

River: (t33766) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t33766
Main Pot: t14010 (t14010), between Button, Hero and MP1. > Pot won by Button (t14010).
Pot 2: t19756 (t19756), between Button and Hero. > Pot won by Button (t19756).

Results below: 
Hero has Ks As (one pair, fours).
MP1 has Th Tc (two pair, tens and fours).
Button has 4c Ac (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Button wins t33766. 

This hand was the start of a crash and burn tilt. I just let it get to me, which is even more stupid than the play. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Boris · #2 10-12-2004, 02:07 PM

I think if you were playing a cash game you played the hand OK. However in a tournament the downside risk is alot greater because you can't simply put more money on the table. That being said I think your chips are going in one way or another on this flop. If you think moving all in on the flop has some chance of making the other players fold then I would seriously consider that option. You have enough chips already that you don't need to win a monster pot. So my view is that going all in here might be the better play. Although in this particular hand the result is most likely the same.

BTW - You didn't say how many players were left and how many seats were paid. If you were really near the end then a fold is in order.

Cleveland Guy · #3 10-12-2004, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That being said I think your chips are going in one way or another on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. He made a very modest bet both pre and post flop. Enough to get the information he was looking for. Stacks at this point are very deep.

Flop - you bet about 2/3 of the pot. Then you got CALLED AND RAISED! This should be setting off an alarm in your head. the MP is probably going all in as he is now pot committed. If you release here you still have a great stack.

Turn - as you said you knew you were beat. As i mentioned MP is all in, and the button is still raising. The side pot isn't that big, so I don't think it's on a bluff.

I think this is an easy fold post flop.

Boris · #4 10-12-2004, 07:15 PM

I don't think it's an easy fold at all. Even if both players opened their hand face up, you are ~1.7:1 to make a flush with two cards to come. The presence of third player in the pot gives you a pretty big overlay here. I'm not sure if giving up your pot equity in this case is worth the reduction in downside risk you get by folding. Again, I say this with the caveat that you are not near the end of the tourny. If you can fold your way to a seat then just muck the hand pre-flop.

Gar Pike · #5 10-12-2004, 03:07 PM

I think one of the major pitalls of playing poker is that it can breed contempt for others. I see it here a lot, and I see it in the people I play with. They play "good" cards and they play them hard, and somehow this gets translated in their mind to "I'm a better person than these "fish", I deserve to win."

One of the things about aggressive poker is that it can get your adrenaline going, the old "fight or flight" reaction. Problem with having been aggressive is that you have a propensity for fight, not flight. I fall into this trap a lot.

So here you have a hand where you've only got a piece of the flop, a draw to not necessarily the nuts, and your opponent is screaming at you that he has you beat, even if you did open with pocket aces.

Did you listen? Well, maybe you did. Did you believe him? well, you said you did. Did you think, "I'm in a tournament, my goal is to play my best and do as well as I can"? It doesn't sound like it. It sounded like you were thinking "My goal is to win this hand so I can coast." When you lost, did you think "What can I learn about my opponent from how he played this hand, and what did I learn about how I can improve my play?" No, you did not. You thought "How does this hand make me feel?", and indulged in those feelings. "I was beaten by somebody I hold in contempt, I'm so good I should have won, I'm angry about that, I think I'll blow off all my good play up till this one hand because I'm an angry man."

I'm not preaching at you, I'm not intending to, anyway, I trap myself this way all too many times. If I knew how to prevent it I would tell you. I got a lot of insight from 'The Zen of Poker' and 'The Tao of Poker', I would recommend them to you.

I think, just from reading your post, that less contempt for others and more thinking "What can I learn from this?" will help you avoid the self-destruction you experienced this time.

I wish you success.

Regards,

Gar

davidross · #6 10-12-2004, 05:14 PM

I need to print this and keep it next to me at all times. I fall into this trap way too often.

Gar Pike · #7 10-13-2004, 11:25 AM

This made my day.

I'm glad I can finally give something in return for the insights you-all have given me.

Now if only I can remember to do as I say, and not as I do... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Cleveland Guy · #8 10-13-2004, 08:15 AM

Great post Gar. I made my own stupid mistake last night. It was exactly as you decided. I "knew" my oponent had Ax. and that there was no way he would call.

Forget that he limped and then did a min-reraise to me. I said "this is bubble time, he won't want to put all his chips on the line with just an Ace".

SO I reraised him with my TT. Figuring he has to fold - of course unless he has a monster. 3 hours of great play just to be in the bottom of the money.

I will defitnately post this next to my monitor.

cferejohn · #9 10-13-2004, 12:34 PM

Let me just second what David has said. It highlights a very important point. Most of us who play seriously on this site will all make similar decisions most of the time. The places where our decisions differ are usually close calls and probably do not result in a huge amount of EV swing one way or the other.

Once you have reached this stage, keeping your head on straight and your mind on what you are doing becomes the difference between breaking even and consistantly winning. I'm more of the Mike Caro ("whoever tilts the least, wins") school of thought than the Mason Malmouth ("never going on tilt is easy; no serious player ever goes on tilt") school of thought on this subject.

I've been as guilty as anyone of considering my opponent an idiot, and Gar is totally right. That he is an idiot does nothing to help you beat him. Analyzing what specific mistakes he makes ("yes gentlemen, they are idiots, but what KIND of idiots are they") is what is going to let you beat them.

In addition to The Tao of Poker and Zen of Poker, I'd recommend The Psychology of Poker. They are all pretty "basic" books, but there is a point at which you know the numbers pretty much as well as you can know them and you need to look to your emotions (and your opponent's emotions).

Gar Pike · #10 10-13-2004, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Gar is totally right. That he is an idiot does nothing to help you beat him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the kind words

I think... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Imagine to yourself my amusement... I know what you are saying. Just the ambiguity of how you said it made me smile.

Myself, I have noticed improvement in my thinking about what to do when I'm playing a hand. Thinking about pot odds, trying to put my opponent on a hand, basic stuff that has to be like breathing if you're going to be in the top percentile of poker players.

At least, my thinking is getting better...and, to tell the truth, so is my play.

Although I still find myself thinking one thing and doing another. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Regards,

Gar