The converter's going open source once I figure out what that means.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
True, but there isn't much profit in trying to resell something you can download for free that is hosted on a freely accessible website.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone could write a derivative of the HH converter that they might wish to sell.

[the_joker]

Which is why I recommended using the GPL, because if someone tried to do this they would also need to distribute their source code which could then be given away for free.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
GPL in a nutshell: Any derivation of GPL'd work that is distributed must itself be GPL'd,must include source code, and must allow for the distribution of further derivations.

[/ QUOTE ]
"Distributed" is the important part here. If you give someone binaries, you must make source available to them. However, last I heard, it wasn't really clear what this means for web-based software. Since you aren't distributing the binaries, the GPL doesn't really apply. If you open the source to the hand converter, in theory I think someone could make their own custom version and put it up on a web server and then not give away the source to it because they haven't distributed their binaries, which violates the spirit of the GPL. So, the GPL doesn't really make that much sense for web-based software, although again this is just what I had heard a few years ago and there may have been changes in legal opinion since then, or this may be somehow address in the new version of the GPL.

(Disclaimers I guess I should add: I'm not a lawyer and don't know much about law. I'm just repeating what I have hard other uninformed people say. Also, I guess since we are discussing source code and licensing and such I should mention that I work for Microsoft, but I'm not speaking on their behalf).

In practice, it probably doesn't matter too much what you do with the license because I really don't think anybody is going to try to rip you off by creating a derivative Super Hand Converter using your code and selling it. And if they did, everyone would refuse to use it anyway.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to set a precedent by selling/leasing/renting the code.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Bison, I don't mean to be ignorant/rude, but why not sell the code and make a few bucks? You've certainly earned it.

[stabn]

I haven't read the thread, but just put it on sourceforge and link the project here.

[bisonbison]

Hey Bison, I don't mean to be ignorant/rude, but why not sell the code and make a few bucks? You've certainly earned it.

The primary reason is that I actually have a pretty strong set of core beliefs about what the converter should be.

Namely:

1) Free - there should never be a usage fee of any sort, nor should use be predicated on any sort of registration or affiliation.

2) Private - submitted hands should not be stored in any way, except through explicit opt-ins that I'm just not interested in.

3) Anonymous - all players involved in the hand should be unidentifiable in the default output, and (going along with the no storage thing) there should be no mechanism for tracking playing patterns based on the conversion transaction.

4) Non-affiliated - while obviously catering to certain online rooms and discussion sites, the converter should, as much as possible, be available to the community at large wherever they may play or post or read.


The converter provides a simple service, with varying degrees of success and fidelity. It was inspired by Slavic's converter, which was free and private and anonymous.

At the moment, there really aren't any competitor converters on the market, but it's clear that several discussion sites, affiliate networks and the like are interested in creating or buying a converter equivalent in order to increase their user base and revenue streams.

That makes me uneasy. I have certain philosophical objections to the aggregation of poker data that some of these sites espouse, and, at the very least, I don't like the idea of directing traffic to one of these competitors for no reason other than that they paid me. Once I sell the code, I have no control of the content or practices of the buyer, and I'd really rather not lead converter users to the 14th best rakeback deal on the web.

So I'm just opting out. I care about this stuff, and it's my code, so I'm just gonna make it available.

I imagine that some people might start their own sites or whatever with my code, but I trust that some people will just enjoy the recognition and the effort involved to continue to help me keep functional builds up at handconverter.com - with no expectations and no attempts to squeeze money from you guys just cause you want to be able to share your hands.

I'll be taking down the 'donate to me' stuff once this gets going, and that's about that.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine that some people might start their own sites or whatever with my code, but I trust that some people will just enjoy the recognition and the effort involved to continue to help me keep functional builds up at handconverter.com - with no expectations and no attempts to squeeze money from you guys just cause you want to be able to share your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

While your decision not to profit from the converter stems from a laudable set of principles, I do wonder about this part. It seems to me that others probably want the converter not to attract 2+2 eyeballs but to add functionality and increase the desirability of their product for their (much) larger customer base. While your open source solution is likely to work in that people will improve it such that the 2+2 community continues to use it, I think sharing the software is still basically tantamount to helping the bottom line of whoever wanted to buy it in the first place.

Why not just share the code with a small group of 2+2 software programmers who are trustworthy and express interest in helping improve the product as times change?

(Note: I have absolutely zero CS background.)

[bisonbison]

Essentially, what sharing the source does is lower the cost of entry for all interested parties by defraying the time sink that is the initial coding. I'm sure most decent programmers will look at my script and vomit in their own mouths, but at least it's compartmentalized in a way that should indicate a decent workflow.

For HE hands at the very least, fully functional code for any one site would take only 10-20 hours of work, ensuring that if any advertising or pay-driven converter site feels onerous, anyone with the skills should be able to provide an alternative relatively quickly with the basic functionality that people seem to expect. And I will happily host that version, with credit and that big old "handconverter.com" link.

I would not be surprised if 4 months from now we're all talking about how great Mr. Smith's converter is, but making the source available means that Mr. Smith's converter would have to be pretty f-ing great if he wants to step away from the free, private, anonymous thing I'm talking about.

[Saint_D]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure most decent programmers will look at my script and vomit in their own mouths, but at least it's compartmentalized in a way that should indicate a decent workflow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Programmers should be more charitable than that. We all had a "first big project". I shudder to think what the code from mine looked like. It's just like poker, you do it better everytime you think hard about what you are doing.

Your program has saved a crazy number of person hours and made the boards a lot more readable. Anyone who complains about the code needs a kick in the shin! (and then they should go fix it, once it's open source and all.)

-D

[bdk3clash]

Anyone else dying to know how much bison was offered?

I DEMAND A BALLPARK FIGURE!