I pushed the raise button till my fingers were numb

Dude - that's poker. The pf action indicates no real strength anywhere. The sb flopped an OEStr8F draw. I autobet this every time from early position to build a monster pot! As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts! your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

He turned the nuts, so he bet again, FULLY expecting you to raise. You did and he correctly re-raises. Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, but I probably would have slowed down. On the river, he has to know he has won, so betting all he can is correct.

BTW I simply LUV suited connectors in the SB. A cheap call and they are very easy to release when you miss.

Seriously, maybe you should consider a little time away from the tables to clear your head. IMHO, you are way off base here with your analysis & comments. Change your perspective & come back and re-read this post.

[Meech]

[ QUOTE ]
but the facts are I protected my hand, I represented a higher straight, and another player came along with only a pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I am missing something, SB had the nut straight. What straight is higher? Why bitch about the dead money coming along for the ride?

[ QUOTE ]

I seriously wonder if the winner of this hand even knew what he was drawing to.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think the turn cap suggests he might have.

On the flop, you two were a virtual coin-flip -- I don't get what you are bitching about. SB saved you money by not capping the flop.

[bozlax]

Buc,

Whoa. What the hell is this? This isn't even a bad beat, you just lost the hand, because you didn't have a very good hand, yourself; flush and straight possibilities be damned, at some point you've got to think that somebody has a set or a better two pair, at least.

SB completed with a hand that I would have limped with from outside the blinds, under the right circumstances. On the flop he picked up straight, flush, and straight-flush draws; his only "mistake" was not 3-betting with 4 opponents. On the turn he made the nut straight, and it survived the river. At what point should he have laid this down?

Button might have folded to 2 on the flop, but given the table you described I don't think I would have either. I might even have 3-bet with TPGK. He probably "should" have dropped it on the turn when his backdoors didn't improve.

You did what you could with what you had, and it didn't work out. If SB had 3-bet you on the flop, would you have believed him on the turn? If not, why not? If so, why didn't you believe him with he 3-bet the turn? Two pair is normally a strong hand, even bottom-and-middle or bottom-two, but against sustained aggression on a draw-heavy board you've got to be able to admit that there's a chance you're beat and slow down. (FWIW, had I been playing your hand, I would have only saved 1 BB. Had I been playing SB's hand it would have cost you .5 or 1 BB more, if you played the turn the same way when I 3-bet the flop and you capped.)

Keep the faith, grasshopper, and the next time you want to post a hand to bitch about, you might want to find a better one than this.

boz

[UATrewqaz]

OH and just for future reference, flopping two pair of any kind is great and all, but when it's bottom and middle pair you can't wig out when you lose.

I've gotten really good and flopping bottom two pair from the BB and then having it totally counterfitted on the turn or river.

Example

5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Turn: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

And the guy holding AT takes the pot and I die a little inside.

[bozlax]

A couple of corrections:

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts!

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop he has the bottom end of the OESD and an 8-high flush draw. Neither of these is to the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds were right to call, but the number of players that were pot-committed on the flop gave him enough pot EQUITY to make a raise the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, if you hate money

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp...'nuff said.

The rest of your post is spot-on.

[ QUOTE ]
A couple of corrections:

[ QUOTE ]
As it stands, he has 9+8-2 outs to what has to be the nuts!

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop he has the bottom end of the OESD and an 8-high flush draw. Neither of these is to the nuts.

[ QUOTE ]
your correct raise and all the calls made the pot odds a no brainer for him to CALL, which he did instead of raising again.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot odds were right to call, but the number of players that were pot-committed on the flop gave him enough pot EQUITY to make a raise the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
Your cap is not necessarily a bad play, if you hate money

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp...'nuff said.

The rest of your post is spot-on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks - I then read the other posts and decided to do the math on the turn cap and quickly found my mistake. With 4 outs to the boat, he could have raised the riv AFTER making 9s or 2s full. 2 for 1 on the turn cap doesn't support the 4 outer.

I did mis-use the term "nuts" as there are only 2 outs to it here, shoulda said "made hand".

As to the pot equity, while I agree with your reasoning, I have a damn hard time 3 betting OOP. I'm going to keep this point on my notepad and see if I'm leaking opportunity here. Thanks again for the corrections.

AB

:grunch: Flop looks good. I would have called the reraise on the turn, not cap. River looks good.

SB should have reraised the flop with 4 other ppl and the OESD.

And a quick $0.02 about why sklansky and miller aren't playing poker is that they are probably making more selling books than gambling.

EDIT after reading post: [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

*grunch*

If you can't handle the good beats how are you going to handle a real bad beat? You have bottom 2 pair, your opponents flop an open ended straight draw and top pair good kicker and you got out drawn. Nobody raised preflop, there isn't a higher straight to represent, but it does show that you know there is a straight on the board and you cap with two pair. All your caveats show your major problem; you don't respect your opponents, ever.

Ask yourself this: How would you have played the 78s differently? In this hand you are the fish.

[Homer315]

Not for anything, but your post makes me think you were the button in the hand. Seriously. You complain about the SB playing suited connectors, the guy did everything right (or close to it, and played his hand better than you played yours). Bottom two is a good hand, but not great, and when there are tons of draws out there, as well as the possibility that your hand could be counterfeited, you simply misplayed the hand, I mean capping the turn?

Even if you had pocket tens and had flopped the best possible hand, there's close to a 50-50 chance you were going to lose to the OESFD.

You're on tilt by posting this hand and ranting about crap.

Capping the turn is bad IMO, otherwise you played the hand fine.

I would play 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the button here let alone the small blind.