QQ and calling down

BellyBuster7 · #1 04-13-2005, 01:41 PM

I just read GT123's very interesting discussion of his QQ hand, and I had kind of a tough QQ hand myself last night.

The table had been very passive (I was planning on leaving it soon) when this hand came up. MP1 had just sat down, so I had no read at all on him. UTG+1 had been very passive, I don't think he PFR'd once the whole session, so his limp-cap really stood out to me.

I'll probably take some heat for not 3-betting the flop, but I thought it was very likely I was up against AA, KK, or JJ.

So what's your move after the flop is capped? The pot is already HUGE, but calling down could get very expensive. I don't think getting into a raising war is doing anything at this point. But I think I have too much here to fold. What's your line? And what do you do if the turn is another blank?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 (poster) raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, MP1 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero ????

zeropotential · #2 04-13-2005, 01:49 PM

pf limp-cap from utg+1 should stand out like hell in your mind, more often then not (so long as the player isn't a total bonehead, sometimes boneheads just like the idea of a big pot) you'll be seeing KK or AA from him.

That being said, I 3-bet when the flop comes to me, but since you didn't i'll call the flop with my 2-outter and then if UTG continues the agression on the turn, fold there UI

jaxUp · #3 04-13-2005, 01:49 PM

We're not ahead. There's no way. With the action so far, you MIGHT be able to make up 8BB on the turn and river being in position. I would call for sanity and with (likely) requisite implied odds. I wouldn't blame you for folding though.

joeski19 · #4 04-13-2005, 01:49 PM

On the flop your giving your opponents to much credit. Your putting them on AA, KK or JJ. Not sure how you can make that read. Yes the Limp cap is weird, but don't play scared.

I'm capping and slapping until a A or K falls. Then I call down.

bottomset · #5 04-13-2005, 01:51 PM

call cap preflop lines from someone limping after another player tend to not be AA,KK but all kinds of garbage and are often just a pissed off player that wanted to see the flop cheap and is making you pay for [censored] his plan up

raising after posting can be a broad range here as well, in that he could try to get it between him and the limpers and buy the button

so the preflop 3bet is standard

this is a very good flop for you

i think there are 2options, call now and raise the turn

and fire away right now

I think you want to maintain the initiative on this hand, so I'd 3bet

also stop the action on the flop when its your turn to act the first time .. seeing that it went 3bet/cap taints everyone's view of the hand to your intial action point

jaxUp · #6 04-13-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop your giving your opponents to much credit. Your putting them on AA, KK or JJ. Not sure how you can make that read.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1 had been very passive, I don't think he PFR'd once the whole session, so his limp-cap really stood out to me.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm capping and slapping until a A or K falls. Then I call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is chip spewing in a HUGE way.

jaxUp · #7 04-13-2005, 01:54 PM

Also, I did not mention in my initial reply, that I would very much like to 3-bet the flop. However, not doing so here turned out okay, as it let us know that we're behind.

SlantNGo · #8 04-13-2005, 01:57 PM

I can't see any way to not 3-bet this on the flop and see a showdown (barring an Ace or King falling of course). I'd need real evidence that UTG+1 is a rock, i.e. at least 50 hands worth to back down, and if that's the case, I would fold the flop. I hate the cold-call.

Fold the flop when it's 2 back to you after the CC, you're not getting good enough odds to draw to a set.

joeski19 · #9 04-13-2005, 02:07 PM

Aren't you just putting your opponents on the only hands that have you beat? This is Party .50/1 they will raise and reraise just to build a pot. Also I've seen limp caps with garbage and limp caps with AA. Ok I'll agree that I might be spewing a bit in my first post.

BellyBuster7 · #10 04-13-2005, 02:13 PM

Thanks for the input guys. Seems like we have a range of opinions here. I tend to think about this flop a lot like zeropotential and jaxUp, in that we are NOT ahead, so it's a call down vs. fold decision more than a call down vs. raise.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm capping and slapping until a A or K falls. Then I call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

No respect at all for the massive aggression we're facing, on what had been a passive table, both pre and post-flop? I don't think AA, KK, or JJ is seeing monsters in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

also stop the action on the flop when its your turn to act the first time .. seeing that it went 3bet/cap taints everyone's view of the hand to your intial action point

[/ QUOTE ]

I originally did stop the action there, but I knew I would have everyone screaming "3-bet!" I think I got a lot of info from the cold call, and in this case, I think it was the right move. If either player had let up, I'd have rethought where I was at, and considered raising a friendly turn card. Since they didn't, I could be fairly sure I was behind.