What's the correct bet size here?

[GrunchCan]

I was really confused about how much to bet. What's the right ammount, and especially why? The presence of UTG+1, who doesn't strike me as a donk, is what was really throwing me off. If only the short stack were there, i'd just get him all in by rasiing half his stack.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) converter

SB (t18134)
Hero (t28286)
UTG (t10299)
UTG+1 (t20498)
MP1 (t19762)
MP2 (t28863)
MP3 (t8380)
CO (t9211)
Button (t18466)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t1600</font>, UTG+1 calls t1600, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to ... ?</font>

[chiefrunningbad]

U have to attack here. going all in and winning the 4400$ or playing the UTG for his 10,000( i dout highly the utg+1 would call even if the utg didn't).

[Sluss]

With almost 5000 in the pot I think that 5000 is a good re-raise. I would highly doubt UTG+1 is coming along even if UTG just flat calls.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
U have to attack here. going all in and winning the 4400$ or playing the UTG for his 10,000( i dout highly the utg+1 would call even if the utg didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 28k in my stack. A push would be a huge 20k overbet, and seems like overkill. UTG+1 is a danger in this pot. If he has AA, after the smoke clears I'll be left with only 8k, in the red zone. There must be some smaller ammount to raise that will accomplish the same goal as a push, but without the downside risk.

[HonchoOverload]

I think the correct reraise is a little more than 5k. You certainly want UTG to come along (hopefully he doesn't have aces), but you also want to lose UTG+1. Say UTG has QQ same suits as you (optimal situation). If UTG+1 has, say JJ or AQ, he may overcall if UTG just calls a reraise of 5k. Think about it from UTG+1's perspective. You raise to 5k, UTG calls, UTG+1 is now getting about 3:1 with implied odds to stack you with certain flops. No brainer with JJ or AQ. you definitely don't want two opponents against KK. I reraise to 7k and hope I'm not up against aces...

[EverettKings]

I would triple it to 4800. UTG only has 10k and will likely push or fold, and UTG+1 with 20k won't have the implied odds for a loose call. But your raise is not SO big as to scare off all the action. If you raise less (to like 3200) then the pot will be laying them such nice odds that they have to tag along. If you raise a ton (to like 10k) you're just killing your action with a fat overbet. 4800 feels right.

Kings

[A_PLUS]

[ QUOTE ]
I would triple it to 4800. UTG only has 10k and will likely push or fold, and UTG+1 with 20k won't have the implied odds for a loose call. But your raise is not SO big as to scare off all the action. If you raise less (to like 3200) then the pot will be laying them such nice odds that they have to tag along. If you raise a ton (to like 10k) you're just killing your action with a fat overbet. 4800 feels right.

Kings

[/ QUOTE ]

Feels right to me.

[locutus2002]

I would raise to T6000.

This will prevent UTG from reraising with a push (it will be an underraise) and it will make it easier for UTG+1 to call without fearing a rereaise. I want to play this hand 3 handed in position with one player committed to the pot.

[HandCracker]

When the action comes around to you there is 3600 in the pot.
if you raise to 4800 your giving UTG 2.6-1 odds and he might call here which would make it an automatic call for UTG+1 because of pot odds. so to make sure he doesnt call, you want to reraise a little mroe than that. a reraise to about 8000 would be good. giving UTG less than 2-1 odds to call, he should fold. then UTG+1 can only call with AA,KK,QQ,AK. i think he would throw away jacks here if you think hes solid.

[A_PLUS]

Once again, you give a very thoughtful, rational line.

The probelem is, you still are giving too much credit to your opponents.

Do you really think that 50% of your opponents
1.) know the rule
2.) Are actively making decisions with that in mind.

This is an example of where the 'perfect' play is probably costing you money.

I think the majority of online players will call 10K all-in reraise from the original raiser the same % of time regardless of wether you bet 4800 or 6000. So, when they call, you are costing yourself a chance to get all of the money in when you bet 6K.

If I read the CCer as a very good attentive player, I would make your play. But against your average onliner, you will cost yourself money with subtle plays like this, you usually just need to give them enough rope to hang themselves.

FWIW, I do think that this is a very good line against good players, but definitely sub-optimal against an average player.