The Overuse of the WA/WB line Out of Position

[Lmn55d]

I'm not going to go as far as to say that the WA/WB check/call, check/call, bet line sucks when out of position like another poster did in the "Clarkmeister Theory" thread, but I do think he has a point.

I think it is overused in a couple situations at games like 10/20 6max. The main one that I see is when you flop an ace from the BB against a blind steal. Let's say the board is A82. Unless the guy has a pair of 8s or 2s, 34, or 45 you are way ahead.

The idea of taking he WA/WB line here is to minimize your losses when you are drawing to 3 outs and maximize your gain when your opponent is drawing to two or less (with a lower pocket pair or unpaired cards).

I think a lot of the theory behind this line in this spot is that you don't want your opponent folding a lower pair here. Instead, you want him to keep firing with it. The current state of the 10/20 6max is such that people rarely fold pairs on this board (or ever). Therefore, checkraising the flop often gains maximum value. Furthermore, there are some donks willing to 3bet you or raise the turn with weaker hands, so you get even more value when this happens.

A second big problem is when your opponent checks the turn with a hand he would have called a bet with. It is not uncommong for an opponent to check through here with KK/QQ or even 45.

One thing that is good about checkraising is that your opponents will often not believe you have the ace because you only called their preflop raise, and aces often 3bet. A lot of times they will peel the flop INCORRECTLY with a KJ/KQ sort of hand, which is sweet. So checkraising the flop often does not prevent them from pairing on the turn and paying you off.

One other thing is that you are forced to bet the river and decide whether you call a raise. If you always fold that is pretty exploitable. Against a lot of players, though, you are almost never ahead when raised. It is often just a really tough decision that is easy to mess up.

The check/call, check/call, bet line in this spot can be great against certain over-aggro or overly tight opponents. But against most I don't think it is optimal. I think checkraising the flop or calling and donking the turn is better. It is also good against players whose range you can narrow down such that you are often way behind (against a preflop capper for instance). Against such players, the risk:reward ratio isn't great.


I'd like to get some thoughts on this from some of you guys who play similar games.

I also have some thoughts about how the current state of the 10/20 6max game necessitates waiting until the turn to raise most good hands and heavily reducing flop semibluff checkraises HU OOP even with hands as strong as flush draws. If anyone is interested maybe I'll write about that in another post and we can discuss.

EDIT: Also, on flops like A86 there are a ton of draws that will 3bet or call the flop checkraise (79, 9J, 9T, etc.)

typically my play in this spot is use the always ahead line... worked for me so far (70/70 in pt)

this is how it goes.

btn open. I call AQ in BB for [censored] metagame. flop AAQ. i bet he raises. i 3-bet and type in the chat box that i'm c/ring the turn.

i find this works well against most legally blind opponents at pp10/20.

he cap it and next thing you know i send the wifey shoppin.

[Zele]

I know you're only a gimmick, but why did you choose to pounce on this well-thought-out post?

OP: I agree with you. As you say, the majority of players will call down with any piece of the board, and Clarking it can cost you up to 2BB in missed opportunity if he won't always bet the turn with value. Plus, the river BFN is transparent to any half-attentive player who plays in these games regularly. Unless you are throwing in some river BFN purebluffs, you're serving up solid information that even the least creative player can take advantage of.

[adamstewart]

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btn open. I call AQ in BB for [censored] metagame.

[/ QUOTE ]


As an aside: this suggested line sucks (for metagame reasons).


Adam

[MAxx]

I aggree on several points. 1st I felt that I was playing the ace line too often...to the point where I was thinking... why slow play everydamn A split pair weak kicker. That cant be right to default to fastplaying sets, etc. and default to slowplaying weak A's. So the issue has something also to do with deception, IMO. People are afraid of A's when they dont have em. Sets are conceiled for example. Anyway, I wont attempt to complete that thought.

2nd thing is I had a hand like QQ on a board like A83 the other day and some unknown fuker cr'd me on the flop. Of course I called it down. He had the Ax.. and I decide that I liked his play a ton.

So I am going to be general and say that the weak A line is probably got to be rethought for more situational/types of villains.

Good thoughts Funky L.

[Lmn55d]

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So I am going to be general and say that the weak A line is probably got to be rethought for more situational/types of villains.

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Yea, this was basically the main point of my argument. Often, especially on the lower limit boards, someone will categorize a situaiton as WA/WB and suggest that hero take the "WA/WB" line. This is WAY too simplistic. The following variables need to be defined:

1) How are we definining WA/WB in this spot? This answer will depend on pot size, implied odds (especially in no limit), and other things.

2) What is the ratio of WA:WB. Are we ahead 70% of the time? 40 %?

3) How will our opponents react when ahead? When behind? Will they calldown with 22?

Once we know these things, THEN we can decide which line is optimal.

[tongni]

If they are checking behind too much, you need to peel more with K high and Q high. If your rag aces aren't getting paid off, you need to checkraise the flop more with air and take away pots with 7 high. This specific line sucks when playing in HU blind situations, especially when you are probably not going to get to the river unless you have a pair and are not going to lead the river unless you have specifically a pair of aces.

[ALL1N]

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If they are checking behind too much, you need to peel more with K high and Q high. If your rag aces aren't getting paid off, you need to checkraise the flop more with air and take away pots with 7 high. This specific line sucks when playing in HU blind situations, especially when you are probably not going to get to the river unless you have a pair and are not going to lead the river unless you have specifically a pair of aces.

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Agreed 100%.

[dave44]

I learned the WA/WB line in small stakes full games and in that area it works very well because in general the range of hands you can put an opponent on in full games is tighter and the games are more passive in general. As the table becomes more shorthanded, and your opponents range of hands widens, you can often do better by being more aggressive with your weak aces because your opponent won't be able to get away from those hands that are WB so easily.

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I'm not going to go as far as to say that the WA/WB check/call, check/call, bet line sucks when out of position like another poster did

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I didn't say it sucks....I said it BLOWS.

Carry on.