Icky pair, monotone flop, I do a stop n go?

soah · #1 12-04-2004, 01:01 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($97.85)
BB ($89)
Hero ($99.8)
MP ($211.95)
CO ($352.09)
Button ($866.09)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
Hero calls $2, 2 folds, Button raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($15) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $15

What am I thinking? I let my fingers play poker on the keyboard while my mind was elsewhere. What the hell am I trying to represent with this bet? Do I check/fold the river if I get called here? I don't know what I'm doing today...

FWIW, my opponent was at 23% preflop raise for the session with moderately aggressive postflop numbers.

amoeba · #2 12-04-2004, 01:07 PM

I think button has the K or maybe QQ/JJ.

if he calls the 15, I would probably check fold unless if you have evidence that he will laydown to river bluff. But you will probably need to bet at least $40 on the river to at least get a chance.

if he has the flush, he's most likely raising the turn.

soah · #3 12-04-2004, 01:33 PM

A guy with 23% PFR decided to raise from the button. You're being very generous in assigning a range of hands for him.

amoeba · #4 12-04-2004, 01:41 PM

ah missed that part.

Is this guy a loose preflop, makes up for it post flop Hansen style player? or is he just loose all around and depends on a lot of aggression to win his pots?

While the odds of him having crap goes up substantially due to this 23% PFR rating, the odds of him having the flush with a mid suited connector also goes up.

I think if he calls your $15. you definitely have to go in to check fold. If he raises, he has the flush no question about it.

soah · #5 12-04-2004, 01:48 PM

I had maybe 40 hands with him and I was playing 3 tables. I know that he's LAG, and not much else.

amoeba · #6 12-04-2004, 01:54 PM

I generally try not to bluff a lag. Especially when he has 9 times my stack.you don't have enough of a stack to maneuver.

I stand by my statement that you probably should check fold if he calls the 15 and of course fold if he raises the 15.

I mean even if he is a crappy player who open underbets his second pair on a 3 flush flop, he still has 88 beat.

That said, I don't mind your stop and go that much. I don't think this guy is bad postflop, just lag preflop.

The stop and go reps a lot of strength.a lot more than a raise on the flop. You just run the risk of a 4th club falling.

soah · #7 12-04-2004, 03:35 PM

In order to potentially generate more discussion, I will now ramble a bit.

On the flop my opponent could have:

A) A bigger pair and a bigger club (compared to my eights, I mean)
B) A bigger pair and no club (or smaller than 8 at least)
C) No pair (or a pair smaller than eights) but a big club
D) No pair or a small pair and no big club

If his cards were face up on the table it would be a mistake to fold unless he has a bigger pair and a bigger draw. But his cards are hidden; I guess that's where we get to play some poker...

When my opponent bets $5 into a $15 pot, it makes me think he doesn't care much for his hand. I believe I may have the best hand. And I may have outs if behind. But neither my pair nor my draw are very good and I'm out of position. Folding seems weak. Raising seems reckless. So I call? Is this really bad? I didn't really have any plan. Because as I said initially, I wasn't really thinking. I was just clicking buttons... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The turn doesn't look like it helps anyone, so I bet 2/3 pot. He may fold middle pair or a bigger club (he'd probably call with the ace, but what if he has the jack or the ten or something?) My play is pretty odd so if he goes ahead and raises me then I know I'm waaaay behind and can fold safely.

But anyway, I had no plan for the river, because I wasn't thinking. My opponent didn't seem crazy/stupid so if anything but an 8 comes and I face a bet I must be beaten, and I fold?

But my opponent folded to my bet on the turn, so I never had to deal with the river.

okayplayer · #8 12-04-2004, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In order to potentially generate more discussion, I will now ramble a bit.

On the flop my opponent could have:

A) A bigger pair and a bigger club (compared to my eights, I mean)
B) A bigger pair and no club (or smaller than 8 at least)
C) No pair (or a pair smaller than eights) but a big club
D) No pair or a small pair and no big club

If his cards were face up on the table it would be a mistake to fold unless he has a bigger pair and a bigger draw. But his cards are hidden; I guess that's where we get to play some poker...

When my opponent bets $5 into a $15 pot, it makes me think he doesn't care much for his hand. I believe I may have the best hand. And I may have outs if behind. But neither my pair nor my draw are very good and I'm out of position. Folding seems weak. Raising seems reckless. So I call? Is this really bad? I didn't really have any plan. Because as I said initially, I wasn't really thinking. I was just clicking buttons... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] The turn doesn't look like it helps anyone, so I bet 2/3 pot. He may fold middle pair or a bigger club (he'd probably call with the ace, but what if he has the jack or the ten or something?) My play is pretty odd so if he goes ahead and raises me then I know I'm waaaay behind and can fold safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about either leading into the pot or c/r the flop? I think this helps you to define his hand better.

[ QUOTE ]

But anyway, I had no plan for the river, because I wasn't thinking. My opponent didn't seem crazy/stupid so if anything but an 8 comes and I face a bet I must be beaten, and I fold?

But my opponent folded to my bet on the turn, so I never had to deal with the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would have been your action if a club fell (same, and fold to a raise?)? I like the blocking bet on the turn though. So, you would check/fold the river? I think that is ok, but if a non-club rag fell on the river you could lead at it again (if your opponent is a decent player, I think it is likely that he would only call with a K - in which case, I think there is a decent chance he would have raised you on the turn).

BobboFitos · #9 12-05-2004, 02:21 AM

Haven't read what others say, but:

[ QUOTE ]
Button ($866.09)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not [censored] with that guy. He knows a thing or two about poker. No set no bet with your 8s vs him;; you dont know if your 8c is clean. You could be drawing to 2 outs once over. Hopefully he folded.