Allin Preflop...

[RiverJohn]

I was playing PL Omaha...$0.25/$0.50 blinds. I recieved AAQ3 double suited (Clubs and Hearts) and limped. One mid player limped, and the cutoff raised pot. Folded back to me, I reraised pot, forcing it headsup. My opponent reraised pot again and I raised allin for a total of $98.

I am pretty new to this game, just starting playing somewhat seriously this week. I was afraid of being outplayed after the flop and thought I'd be better off getting allin preflop with this hand. Was this a decent assumption? I figured he must have had AA also, probably something like AA2x single suited...

The ending board showed: 65Q87, no flush and I got quartered to his hand: AsAd4c3c

He said his hand was clearly superior preflop, but i cannot see how. Is the counterfeit protection afforded by the 4 THAT important? For that to come into play, both the low would need to hit AND one of the two remaining 3s would need to show up. He is suited, but I have bigger in the suit. Does his straight possibility make up for it?

If his suited 43 would have been ie diamonds, would that change assessments?

[Dynasty]

If you don't have confidence in your post-flop skills, you really shouldn't be playing pot-limit or no-limit games.

Since you are all-in pre-flop, this is a situation where you can run a simulation to determine whether or not you are in a good EV spot. Using the twodimes website, I got these numbers:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Qc Ah 3h 72156 115239 60715 324046 0 15173 185917 0.531
As 4c 3c Ad 23054 60715 115239 324046 51036 0 185917 0.469

If your opponent had the 4d3d you asked about, the results are as follows:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac Qc Ah 3h 74617 129512 85740 284748 0 15235 185926 0.518
As Ad 4d 3d 40572 85740 129512 284748 51364 0 185926 0.482

You were in a marginally +EV position. Regardless, going all-in just two times in a row with a 53/47 edge means that you are very likely to be busted.

[RiverJohn]

I should ammend my post to state that I am clearly better than some players and have confidence postflop the majority of the time. I figured this particular player was above average from watching him play, and probably a bit better than me.

I usually wait...wait...wait...for the nuts or next to them to bet, and I usually get a fair amount of callers.

ThanX for the info...what is this "twodimes" website? I tried www.twodimes.com, but it wasn't the correct page. ThanX again!

[RiverJohn]

One more question...If you knew you were a 53/47 favorite headsup preflop, would you not want to get allin before the flop every time? I am assuming that you can always replenish your bankroll, and also there is an initial $50 max buyin, so there is a limit to what you can lose.

Or am I thinking like a limit player, and you should wait to get your money in dring better situations. Theoretically, what would a good overlay be to be going allin preflop?

[Zeno]

Riverjohn, you stated: "I recieved AAQ3 double suited (Clubs and Hearts) and limped. One mid player limped,..."

From this it is evident that you limped in early with this hand and I think that was a mistake(even if in this instances it would not make much difference in the hand). You should have raised and not limped. However, I am unfamiliar with miro-limit, on-line games so perhaps others with more experience will correct me if I am wrong on this.

-Zeno

[Dynasty]

It's www.twodimes.net

[Greg (FossilMan)]

This is not a tourney, so the only bankroll considerations are your personal bankroll, not the "artificial" bankroll of a tourney. Thus, if you have any edge, you should take it. The ONLY reason to forego a play that has +EV is when another play has a higher +EV.

Because you are out of position, it is debatable whether going all-in preflop is better or worse than calling his last raise. Without exact numbers I can't make a good guess (specifically, how big was your last raise).

As for his hand being clearly better than yours, he is right and wrong. I would rather have his hand as the cards are being dealt. Once I am heads-up and going all-in, I'd rather have your double-suited hand (or maybe not, until I see the opponent's hand, I won't know my only "live" card is the 4, so I might prefer having 3 low cards as an escape).

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[RiverJohn]

I am still learning this Pot Limit Omaha hilo game myself. I have read Bob Ciaffone's two books on the subject (His pot limit book and his Omaha book with a section on Pot Limit). These are very good books, but far from complete. The section in his Omaha is a small two pages, and the hilo section in his Pot Limit book is combined with all other hilo games. No specific starting hand advice is given, and the playing advice is vague. It would take a whole book to go into the intracacies of play. Is there a website which expands on these books?

Like I said, I am still learning. My rational for limping with this hand (right or wrong) was that I raise very seldom (easy to put me on this type of hand) and that the pot is often popped by someone in late position. I had planned to reraise if the pot was raised late, because many of these players are stubborn and macho and will not back down if they had started the raising.

A large part of my problem in this game is not knowing what starting hands to play in what position. I especially do not know what a raising hand looks like! (Besides the obvious...AA23, etc.) I play EXTREMELY tight. Not many of these players seem to pick up on this, but I do think a raise would tell them roughly what hand I hold. I play much tighter up front than in late position, and will fold many more hands for a raise.

[Mr. Peterson]

Hi RiverJohn. Firstly the edge is 51/49 but even with a positive EV it does not mean that you should go allin preflop since you are a good player postflop. Your edge is often considerably larger if you delay putting the money in. In my opinion players who go allin preflop in Omaha8 are making a bigger mistake in that game than any other (generally). I myself have had AA23ss twice gone allin preflop both times and never got a penny back. Wait to see what the poker gods give you on the flop before making your decisions. In this case however there would have been little you could do either way.