Roger Clemens

[andyfox]

Has started 15 games this year and given up 17 earned runs.

[Aytumious]

I think it's time he finally hung em up, don't you think, Andy?

[Kevin]

This is the anti-2001. The year he started 20-1, finished 20-3 and had a 3.51 era. Everyone had him as a shoo-in for the Cy Young that year, but I remember an article late in the year comparing his WHIP, K's, etc to one of the Oakland guys. That year, he was annointed early as the CY and they were saying that it was a horse race between Schilling and Johnson - when in fact, when you looked behind the numbs, it was Johnson by far (and he won). Their point was, the A.L. should have been tighter, and Johnson should have been ahead.

I really dig the rocket, he continues to amaze and I am beginning to think that he is the greatest pitcher of all time - all things considered (the last decade of slow pitch softball type offensive numbers, international influence, etc.), and while his record should be much better than 6-3, he probably shouldn't have been 20-3 in 2001. Very long winded way of saying that baseball is the ultimate long run game - both inside a season and a career. (of course, he was incredible in '90 21-6 1.93 - singlehandedly pitched boston to the playoffs - broke down late in the season and Bob Welch got 27 wins and they changed an earned run to an unearned run to get his ERA under 3 so he probably had the '01 Cy coming to him)

[MarkL444]

its a good thing them astros are such run producers

[Jack of Arcades]

You could make a case for Mulder or Garcia in 2001, but Clemens was hurt by that defense behind him.

[Voltron87]

when he comes back to the yankees i am going to cry. partly because seeing him come back to yankee stadium will be ludricrously awesome, and partly because we'll dig tomorrows grave a little deeper than it already is.

[andyfox]

Yeah, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his team that year (Mussina), much less the league. But he probably did indeed get shafted out of a couple of Cy Young awards earlier in his career, so I suppose we can cut him some slack.

Bill James also thinks there's an argument to be made for him being the greatest pitcher ever. I think he falls short, but he's probably in the top five.

[andyfox]

I would think Randy Johnson's performance this year would put a kabosh on acquiring any other old-timers. Javier Vasquez will probably win a hundred more games from here on out than will Johnson.

Wang didn't pitch great tonight, but I think he has a chance to be OK. Henn looks pretty weak. Brown will be out of baseball after this year, Mussina is, what 37?, and who knows is Jaret Wright will ever win in double figures again. Giambi, Tino, Sierra, Bernie and Womack will all be gone next year. Rivera and Gordon and Sheffield are not young. The future doesn't look too bright.

[Jack of Arcades]

You're right, Mussina was better..

As for "greatest pitcher ever," he's certainly the best post-war pitcher.

[Toro]

Dan Duquette, Sox GM let him walk to Toronto because he said he was in "the twilight of his career." He also let Mo Vaughn walk so I guess you could say he was 1 for 2. But with Duquette I always got the feeling it had more to do with personalities than baseball judgemnet.