When you do not want overcalls

SlantNGo · #1 11-26-2005, 03:59 PM

I'm not sure if I've ever applied this concept correctly, but I felt pretty confident that this was a good time for it. No solid read on either of them, but BB looked to be LAG after ~20 hands.

At the flop, I'm ready to concede defeat. Done with the hand. But when both the flop & turn are checked through, with BB betting the river, I thought there was a good chance he was just bluffing, and I think a normal player would be able to lay down a King here for 2 bets.

Would it have just been better to bet the turn?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (3 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises

milesdyson · #2 11-26-2005, 04:04 PM

bet that flop. there's a decent chance they both fold 6 outers right away.

also, a few things about the river -

1. the small blind doesn't have a hand he'd call for a single bet that often.
2. you're risking 2 bets to win 4 with a pair under 4 of the board cards.
3. the big blind will basically never fold a better hand.

SlantNGo · #3 11-26-2005, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet that flop. there's a decent chance they both fold 6 outers right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I saw the Ace and King come up and just flat out gave up.

[ QUOTE ]
also, a few things about the river -

1. the small blind doesn't have a hand he'd call for a single bet that often.
2. you're risking 2 bets to win 4 with a pair under 4 of the board cards.
3. the big blind will basically never fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You can't see a typical loose-passive hanging around with a King?
2. Point taken.
3. Agreed. How often would you put him on a better hand is the key question.

I agree that a flop bet is goot. Once you get to the river though, given the way I played, what would you do?

milesdyson · #4 11-26-2005, 04:41 PM

sure i could see someone with a king there - but

1. will he fold it?
2. do you have the bettor beaten often enough to try to fold the other guy out in this small pot?

i think not. given the way you played this hand, you should fold the river. there just really aren't many hands he can even be bluffing with now.

kapw7 · #5 11-26-2005, 05:19 PM

You have no reads (?)
Bet the turn. Otherwise I wouldnt bother with this hand. What hands do you beat on the river without reads to put 2 bets on a 4 bets pot.

eviljeff · #6 11-26-2005, 05:28 PM

this hand was poorly played. you definitely should have bet the flop. why would you "concede defeat"? you could easily have the best hand here.

it's true that you don't want sb to overcall here, but you also don't want to throw an extra BB into a tiny pot.

detruncate · #7 11-26-2005, 05:40 PM

Hi SlantNGo.

This isn't a good spot to apply this concept. Villain might be bluffing, but if he caught any piece of the board (with the exception of the 4 which he might have bet the turn with) you're screwed. The pot is also very small. If you've been content to check it down so far I just give it up.

However, I bet this flop. It's worth taking a stab at the 6 SB pot 3-way with what should be a scary board for your villains. They only have to fold outright more than 1 time in 6 and it's very easy to get away from your hand when things don't go well for you.

When it checks to you on the turn after the flop checks through you should think about putting in a bet. It's likely that nobody has hit anything and you can take down the pot or buy a free showdown. It's also not inconceivable to tricky/LAGgy/clueless players that you slowplayed the flop with a monster or had a K but were afraid of an A. I prefer a turn bet much more than a river raise.

SlantNGo · #8 11-26-2005, 05:45 PM

Thanks guys... I could get away with this type of mistake at full ring (not betting the flop) but I think it will kill me at 6-max. I'll definitely look out for more situations like these.

So, results, SB folds, BB folds, I win w/o SD. A little results oriented thinking probably got to me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

detruncate · #9 11-26-2005, 06:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks guys... I could get away with this type of mistake at full ring (not betting the flop) but I think it will kill me at 6-max. I'll definitely look out for more situations like these.

So, results, SB folds, BB folds, I win w/o SD. A little results oriented thinking probably got to me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If there was more in the pot it might be worth trying, especially if the third guy has called previously. It's true that you don't want overcalls, but I want it to be more likely that I'm ahead of Villain before I make this play -- maybe he's played his hand like a draw all the way and it the river bricks, maybe a scary card falls and he likes to bet scaries, maybe Villain routinely bluff-donks. We have to think value bet potential + increased equity = at least 1 BB. That's asking a lot on this board with 4 BB in the pot.

It's good to think about this stuff though.

Happy pokering.

#10 11-26-2005, 07:59 PM

I think you have to bet this flop. You probalby have the best hand, and even better having the a and k on the flop gives you a ton of fold equity against most opponents.

As played, I really don't like the river. You are risking 2BB in a small pot, and I think you are behind BB like pretty much all of the time here.