AQo, monotone flop.

[deception5]

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This looks fine against an LPP. The turn is bet/fold I assume?

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Yes this is the last of my money going in.

[deception5]

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bet/call or c/c river. pot is big enough.

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I don't think he ever bets a hand I beat here on a 4-flush board. Certainly not 10% of the time.

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I disagree with this. Even very passive players recognize that this is an obvious bluffing situation. And I also think that such players are capable of calling a bet without the flush. I vote for bet/fold.

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I'm not sure that a passive player is going to be looking for a bluffing situation here. Most bluffs are going to be hands like missed draws and the major draw here already hit on the turn. If he has a medium strength hand I think he checks behind to see if he won.

I'm also not sure I like the idea of investing 2 more BB once the 4-flush comes as at some point I have to give the player credit for a hand and I am just giving him money.

[B Dids]

I'm not sure that you can do anything differently. Save that sometimes I'll just call pf here and c/r the flop, which in this case might lead to more information, maybe...

[deception5]

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I don't like the turn donk either. There's no real read on the 50VPIP guy, so he's basically unknown. I c/c the turn and probably c/f the river if UTG overcalls the turn.

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This is pretty much what I was wondering. The plan for this hand was to lead the flop, call a button raise and lead a safe turn. Of course a non-safe turn came but I thought checking might be granting the button license to steal... then again it is a dangerous board.

I think 3-betting the flop here is interesting as if UTG calls 2 more there's a good chance he has at least a strong flush draw, so it might make the turn play more straightforward here.

[SlantNGo]

I like a flop 3-bet here, as it gives UTG the same odds as a turn donk would. We may be able to get UTG to fold a small club, and I think the bet has immediate value. If you decide to wait and donk the turn (which I probably would have done as well), I think you have to check and fold when the 4th club drops. You're beat too often here IMO, and UTG most likely isn't going anywhere if he holds a small club.

[Pinlifter]

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AQ makes a ton of money when you're up against one nearly random hand and a second, slightly-less-random hand.


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Against 2 random hands the raise earns you a little less than a small bet(AQo equity is ~45%). Against a random hand and one hand in the range of AA-66, AK-A9, AKs-A8s, KQ-KTs the pre-flop raise earns you a little more than 2/3 of a small bet(AQo equity is ~38%). Of course the actual amount a flop raise will earn you is less because sometimes the UTG will fold.

For the sake of this argument, I'm willing to stipulate the preflop raise is worth ~2/3 of a small bet. While not a paltry amount it is certainly not "a ton" and can easily be made up with a raise/check raise on a more expensive street. It can also be made up by strategically playing the flop with the intent to increase pot equity. You have a lot more flexibility in playing your hand post flop if you just call preflop.

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UTG is loose and passive, and will pay us off on many streets when we hit our hand. We can't be scared of him sucking out on us.


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If this guy is a gold mine in the hand why risk driving him out with a preflop raise that might only be worth 2/3 of a small bet. I'd like to see him gone, but its apparent you do not. I want to know why then you would risk driving him out.

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If the flop comes AQQ or something like that, a flop c/r (as you advocate) will shut our opponents down as quickly as a 3bet/lead. Possibly even more, as a lead is seen as just continuation, where a c/r screams "I have an A minimum!"

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Please point out where I advocate a flop checkraise when the hero flops a monster. I specifically said by calling preflop one can wait to a more expensive street(i.e. turn or river) before giving a hint about the strenghth of ones hand.

Pinlifter

[Pinlifter]

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I completely agree. Against many opponents I would say it's even wider, this is very often an isolation raise. AQo is a big hand shorthanded.

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I agree AQo is a big hand short handed. The more shorthanded it is the bigger AQo is. Heads up is as short as it gets and thats how you should want to play this hand. If you think your preflop raise will get you heads up that is obvisously the best play. Calling only starts to look better when you think a preflop raise will fail to get the hand heads up.

Pinlifter

[RunDownHouse]

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If this guy is a gold mine in the hand why risk driving him out with a preflop raise that might only be worth 2/3 of a small bet.

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That's the whole point: it won't fold him out. He'll call pf regardless of whether its one or two back to him. "Waiting for a more expensive street," like facing him with two cold on the turn, is much more likely to drive him out.

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Please point out where I advocate a flop checkraise when the hero flops a monster. I specifically said by calling preflop one can wait to a more expensive street(i.e. turn or river) before giving a hint about the strenghth of ones hand.

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You'll make much more money 3betting pf and leading the whole way than you will flat calling and c/ring the turn. I did say flop c/r in my earlier post, but the same principle applies to the turn. You're going to get an immediate fold much more often with your c/r than you will early folds when you lead lead lead.

Just curious, do you flat call TT in this spot? JJ? 99? AQs? It really sounds like you're playing this with a mindset of avoiding difficult postflop decisions or suckouts instead of maximizing value.
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I'd like to see him gone

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[DMBFan23]

if you're going to donk a turn club, why not 3-bet the flop? I could see waiting if you were waiting for a non club to checkraise button, but when the club comes and you still bet, do you think UTG is more likely to fold that way?

[Pinlifter]

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Just curious, do you flat call TT in this spot? JJ? 99? AQs?

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Sometimes I flat call, sometimes I raise. Almost always raise with JJ TT and AQs. A lot depends on my opponents.

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It really sounds like you're playing this with a mindset of avoiding difficult postflop decisions or suckouts instead of maximizing value.

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This false conclusion is due to your one dimensional thinking. Your thought process is stringent and single tracked(lead, lead, lead). I on the other hand consider multiple lines of play that are flexible enough to change as the hand unfolds.

Pinlifter