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  #111  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:42 PM
Gramps Gramps is offline
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

I think this is a spot where your typical 2+2'er "pushbot" is susceptible to a leak in their game. I love playing against players that push crap in spots like this (J8 isn't crap, but some people go way too far here, esp. with 3-5 BB).

With J8, it's a function of BB's understanding of pot odds (and to a lesser extent, SB coupled with his understanding of your pushing range). In the 215s I'd fold, don't know how often a "typical" BB folds here in the 22s. If a BB fold isn't that uncommon here, push that shiat. I'd always push against a known tightie with a lack of pot odds understanding.

And just because this hand is +cev to push, doesn't necessarily mean it's +$EV to push. You're putting at risk future opportunities here with your tourney life on the line, that has to factor in to your decision-making.

On average you'll get your chips in in a better spot if you wait here - that's countered by the fact that when you do win your J8 puhs, you'll still get those same opportunities, have more FE to steal, etc., etc.
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  #112  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:45 PM
LALDAAS LALDAAS is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: bored at work
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO you should really shut the f*ck up because you just sound like an idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent!

Reguardless of the trolls pig headedness, I my self am still a nOOB as far SnG's go,I learned more from this thread then I learned (today on my lunch hour)reading the ALL-IN section in TPFAP.
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  #113  
Old 12-29-2005, 04:49 PM
pooh74 pooh74 is offline
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

And just because this hand is +cev to push, doesn't necessarily mean it's +$EV to push

Yes it does...
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  #114  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:17 PM
tigerite tigerite is offline
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a spot where your typical 2+2'er "pushbot" is susceptible to a leak in their game. I love playing against players that push crap in spots like this (J8 isn't crap, but some people go way too far here, esp. with 3-5 BB).

With J8, it's a function of BB's understanding of pot odds (and to a lesser extent, SB coupled with his understanding of your pushing range). In the 215s I'd fold, don't know how often a "typical" BB folds here in the 22s. If a BB fold isn't that uncommon here, push that shiat. I'd always push against a known tightie with a lack of pot odds understanding.

And just because this hand is +cev to push, doesn't necessarily mean it's +$EV to push. You're putting at risk future opportunities here with your tourney life on the line, that has to factor in to your decision-making.

On average you'll get your chips in in a better spot if you wait here - that's countered by the fact that when you do win your J8 puhs, you'll still get those same opportunities, have more FE to steal, etc., etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well J8o is about as low as I'd go here, I wouldn't be pushing with any two that's for sure.
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  #115  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:36 PM
ZeroPointMachine ZeroPointMachine is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a spot where your typical 2+2'er "pushbot" is susceptible to a leak in their game. I love playing against players that push crap in spots like this (J8 isn't crap, but some people go way too far here, esp. with 3-5 BB).

With J8, it's a function of BB's understanding of pot odds (and to a lesser extent, SB coupled with his understanding of your pushing range). In the 215s I'd fold, don't know how often a "typical" BB folds here in the 22s. If a BB fold isn't that uncommon here, push that shiat. I'd always push against a known tightie with a lack of pot odds understanding.

And just because this hand is +cev to push, doesn't necessarily mean it's +$EV to push. You're putting at risk future opportunities here with your tourney life on the line, that has to factor in to your decision-making.

On average you'll get your chips in in a better spot if you wait here - that's countered by the fact that when you do win your J8 puhs, you'll still get those same opportunities, have more FE to steal, etc., etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well J8o is about as low as I'd go here, I wouldn't be pushing with any two that's for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pushing almost any 2 here. Anything with more than 35% equity verse a random hand should be pushed here. Here you have the chance to play against a random hand. That is not going to happen again in this tournament.
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  #116  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:38 PM
pooh74 pooh74 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 316
Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a spot where your typical 2+2'er "pushbot" is susceptible to a leak in their game. I love playing against players that push crap in spots like this (J8 isn't crap, but some people go way too far here, esp. with 3-5 BB).

With J8, it's a function of BB's understanding of pot odds (and to a lesser extent, SB coupled with his understanding of your pushing range). In the 215s I'd fold, don't know how often a "typical" BB folds here in the 22s. If a BB fold isn't that uncommon here, push that shiat. I'd always push against a known tightie with a lack of pot odds understanding.

And just because this hand is +cev to push, doesn't necessarily mean it's +$EV to push. You're putting at risk future opportunities here with your tourney life on the line, that has to factor in to your decision-making.

On average you'll get your chips in in a better spot if you wait here - that's countered by the fact that when you do win your J8 puhs, you'll still get those same opportunities, have more FE to steal, etc., etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well J8o is about as low as I'd go here, I wouldn't be pushing with any two that's for sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pushing almost any 2 here. Anything with more than 35% equity verse a random hand should be pushed here. Here you have the chance to play against a random hand. That is not going to happen again in this tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldnt go that far, but J8 to me seems like plenty.
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  #117  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:44 PM
microbet microbet is offline
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

I don't know why I'm rechiming in here, well, I am bored.

Like I said, looks like a push, but it's close. Pushing any two is pretty crazy. If I kept getting terrible terrible cards, I'd just take the BB.
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  #118  
Old 12-29-2005, 05:49 PM
pooh74 pooh74 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
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Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I'm rechiming in here, well, I am bored.



[/ QUOTE ]

ditto that...im locking myself out of this thread...the law of diminishing returns has taken over.
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  #119  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:46 PM
Gramps Gramps is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oaktown
Posts: 124
Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pushing almost any 2 here. Anything with more than 35% equity verse a random hand should be pushed here. Here you have the chance to play against a random hand. That is not going to happen again in this tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...so if you fold the J8, push one of your next three hands and it's folded to the BB, he's not going to have a random hand? Pushing any two is absolutely awful (absent an overly tight BB) and a leak a lot of pushbot players have. Chip EV does not = $EV in situations like this. It's nice for formulaic analysis and writing software, but it doesn't hold in spots like this when losing means you're out and you miss out on future +EV opportunities you would (on average) have had that are much better than the one you took.

I absolutely love playing against players who have this kind of pushing mentality in spots like this, more +$EV opportunities for me to gamble with a smaller portion of my stack against these players.
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  #120  
Old 12-29-2005, 06:53 PM
pooh74 pooh74 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 316
Default Re: $22: Push or wait with an uber short stack

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pushing almost any 2 here. Anything with more than 35% equity verse a random hand should be pushed here. Here you have the chance to play against a random hand. That is not going to happen again in this tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm...so if you fold the J8, push one of your next three hands and it's folded to the BB, he's not going to have a random hand? Pushing any two is absolutely awful (absent an overly tight BB) and a leak a lot of pushbot players have. Chip EV does not = $EV in situations like this. It's nice for formulaic analysis and writing software, but it doesn't hold in spots like this when losing means you're out and you miss out on future +EV opportunities you would (on average) have had that are much better than the one you took.

I absolutely love playing against players who have this kind of pushing mentality in spots like this, more +$EV opportunities for me to gamble with a smaller portion of my stack against these players.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're thinking about it from "your" point of view and not Hero's. What future +EV situation is he passing on? Of course as the BB you love calling here and taking advantage of the "pushbot" but this hand has nothing to do with "pushbotting"...it is simply an opportunity which may be your last to get HU against a random hand with a "decent" holding 3way.

If you give me an example of waiting for the more +EV opp that comes along I'd be curious.

Also, +cEV is surely +$EV with 2BBs as the shortstack, unless I am misunderstanding something.

I agree that any 2 though is too much.
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