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  #21  
Old 11-21-2005, 09:54 AM
BOTW BOTW is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

The error is not necessarily in these laydowns. These laydowns are awesome* and worthy of praise. The error is doing it again when you are facing a worse hand. Then again when facing a bluff, etc. You don't need to make an improper 'great laydown' very often to show a massive loss. (I exhibited a "tell" once that resulted in a 'great laydown' in a big pot and he was proud. The whole table talked about it the rest of the night. Unfortunately for him, I was bluffing and had just seen the waitress approaching with my drink.)

*depending on stack size, pot size, etc.
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  #22  
Old 11-21-2005, 10:28 AM
teddyFBI teddyFBI is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

go post this in the mid/high-stakes limit forum and then count the number of new assholes you're torn.

i am done with this retarded thread.
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  #23  
Old 11-21-2005, 12:09 PM
tripdad tripdad is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

[ QUOTE ]
go post this in the mid/high-stakes limit forum and then count the number of new assholes you're torn.

i am done with this retarded thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd rather laugh at the almighty 2+2 mid/high stakes god-like posters when they attempt to tell doyle brunson what a terrible lay-down he made. (again, assuming this tale of the great lay down is the truth, which is debateable to say the least)

tripdad
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  #24  
Old 11-21-2005, 01:10 PM
2+2 wannabe 2+2 wannabe is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

[ QUOTE ]
the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

These aren't even close to the example given at the beginning - given that they're NL and all

The first hand is easy if there's a read that the initial raiser will only raise with AA from the position he was in (which I'm sure there was)

A reraise in NL from the BB is significant - I'm sure the initial raiser put your wife on AA/KK only (the re-raise from the BB with KK is a questionable play at best) - then when she overpushed coming back to her it's a pretty easy laydown with QQ. If she wouldn't have reraised PF she'd have had the other guy's stack.

Plus you have to take into consideration when people make these laydowns and they're wrong (which happens quite frequently - I'd say more often than the pot odds are offering - especially in 2/5 with less than 200 behind)
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  #25  
Old 11-21-2005, 02:56 PM
gildwulf gildwulf is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

[ QUOTE ]
let us assume that it is the absolute truth that doyle laid down aces full to quads in a limit game.

to all those who say it is a terrible laydown in any limit game no matter what read you have on your opponent, i say baloney. according to the FTOP, it is correct to lay aces full down to quads depending on the odds the pot is laying you. doyle brunson is arguably the greatest poker player to ever live...who are you to dispute his read?

hell, twice in the past 2 months, i've seen amatuer players make laydwns in no limit and pot limit games that were nothing short of brilliance....and that many of you would say are terrible.

the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is that this is a LIMIT game and the pot was most likely laying Doyle ridiculous odds. So he got this one right, but if his reads are ever wrong (Which they sometimes are) he is making a HUGE error. If the pot is 20 bets it costs him 2 more bets to get to the river and win 24 bets. He's getting 12-1 to call down. That means his read has to be right 92% of the time for it to be a breakeven play.
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  #26  
Old 11-21-2005, 02:59 PM
soko soko is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
let us assume that it is the absolute truth that doyle laid down aces full to quads in a limit game.

to all those who say it is a terrible laydown in any limit game no matter what read you have on your opponent, i say baloney. according to the FTOP, it is correct to lay aces full down to quads depending on the odds the pot is laying you. doyle brunson is arguably the greatest poker player to ever live...who are you to dispute his read?

hell, twice in the past 2 months, i've seen amatuer players make laydwns in no limit and pot limit games that were nothing short of brilliance....and that many of you would say are terrible.

the first was in a $2/5 B&M n/l game. the player called a preflop raise with QQ in the hole. before the flop even came, he held out his cards as if to muck and says to the dealer something to the effect of, "if the flop doesn't hit me, i'm done with the hand." the flop came A-Q-rag rainbow. the player with a set of Q's then says to the dealer, "that's not what i was looking for, dealer." the PFR bets, and the player with middle set insta mucks face up to the astonishment of everyone at the table. the PFR tables his set of Aces after having the pot pushed his way.

the 2nd instance was very similar, but in a $1/2 pot limit game. there was a raise in early position. my wife re-raises from the BB with KK in the pocket. HU to the flop, which was K-Q-7...2 clubs. my wife leads out for about 1/2 the pot. the original raisor then makes a sizeable raise. my wife comes back over the top. the other player then mucks a set of Q's face up. neither my wife, nor the other player had more than $200.00 to start the hand. also, neither my wife, nor the other player are considered to be among the better players at the table.

tripdad

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point is that this is a LIMIT game and the pot was most likely laying Doyle ridiculous odds. So he got this one right, but if his reads are ever wrong (Which they sometimes are) he is making a HUGE error. If the pot is 20 bets it costs him 2 more bets to get to the river and win 24 bets. He's getting 12-1 to call down. That means his read has to be right 92% of the time for it to be a breakeven play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both other players had sets on the flop, it was gonna cost him 8 bets to see the showdown.

PF raise 3BB
Flop capped 6BB
turn he is laying effectively 1:9 but if he thinks it will be capped on the turn and river he is going to have to put a total of 8 more bets in to win a pot of around 33 by the showdown.

Edit: That is, his read needs to be correct 3 in 4 times. or 75% of the time the both of them had sets on the flop.

I had it backwards last time.
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  #27  
Old 11-21-2005, 03:56 PM
tripdad tripdad is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

i know my wife misplayed her hand...that wasn't the point.

as for the 1st situation, i agree that it is sometimes easy to tell when certain players have AA preflop because of certain tells (though the AA guy was on the button, so position had nothing to do with it). still an impressive laydown for someone who is only a part time amatuer player.

tripdad
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2005, 04:32 PM
Danenania Danenania is offline
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Default Re: Doyles big laydown

This wouldn't have to be that big of a deal. With some decent reads, especially in a live game, there are situations involving fairly tight and passive players on a board like this where a fold would not only be correct but easy.
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