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  #11  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:36 AM
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The point I was making is that even the elite of that race who attend university or are wealty don't excel in society. There are very, very few great CEOs, lawyers, writers, artists, politicians, scientists, nobel prize winners (lol), journalists, etc etc who are from that race.

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If you make the standard high enough, there are very few "greats" of any race. You said their elites don't excel. Assuming we're talking about Blacks/Africans, they obviously do excel. You can argue if you want about how much they excel relative to whites or Asians, but to say their elites don't excel is obviously false. How, please tell me, do they become wealthy by not excelling somewhere along the line?

Since this is a poker site, do Phil Ivey and David Williams excel at poker or not?

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Though they have made a notable contribution to bling bling gansta rap (girls in skimpy clothing and shiny man-jewellery, anyone?). I guess that could be considered art.

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If you think that this is the limit of their contribution I don't think you're looking very hard at all. The idea that you can bring up modern music and not mention Jazz and Blues ... ahh, why waste my time.
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  #12  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:36 AM
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Higher IQ's will propogate where having a high IQ is advantageous.

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Such as Europe and North Asia during the ice ages?

OK so I'm joking, but to convince me of your theory you'd have to convince me that intelligent people have more kids than your average joe. Is there any evidence of this, because it's not the case today.

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And there are numerous studies to the effect that this gap has been closing for decades.

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Yes, it's called interbreeding, which presumably has happened a lot more since America ended Apartheid. And the gap hasn't closed that much - see the graph in wiki.

And finally there's the point that poor Africans do horribly at IQ tests - just above retard - whereas poor Indians, Chinese, Middle Eastern, you name it get normal scores (in fact some do better than white scores). Go figure.
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  #13  
Old 12-20-2005, 05:53 AM
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OK so I'm joking, but to convince me of your theory you'd have to convince me that intelligent people have more kids than your average joe. Is there any evidence of this, because it's not the case today.

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You're talking about the intelligentsia being outbred here. I'm talking about the difference between a 95 and a 100 IQ, I'm talking about the guy who can figure out how to operate the tivo being more attractive than the guy who can't etc. That's clearly the case is contemporary society.

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Yes, it's called interbreeding, which presumably has happened a lot more since America ended Apartheid. And the gap hasn't closed that much

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Interbreeding, what's your evidence of that? Would test participants of mixed race qualify for these kind of studies on race related IQ? I don't know the answer to that - but I'm guessing not.

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And finally there's the point that poor Africans do horribly at IQ tests - just above retard - whereas poor Indians, Chinese, Middle Eastern, you name it get normal scores (in fact some do better than white scores). Go figure.

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Again this is not an issue of race it's an issue of environment. If you visit sub-saharan africa you'll see exactly why IQ is not highly valued. Black Americans/Europeans etc do not live in Africa. If a high IQ is attractive, and a gap is present as a result of that history, it will close with or without interbreeding.

And just as a voice of reason, the gap isn't exactly very big as it is, and there's plenty crossover.
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  #14  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:10 AM
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Again this is not an issue of race it's an issue of environment. If you visit sub-saharan africa you'll see exactly why IQ is not highly valued. Black Americans/Europeans etc do not live in Africa. If a high IQ is attractive, and a gap is present as a result of that history, it will close with or without interbreeding.

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You're mixing up a couple of different factors here. One is that it is highly debatable what IQ actually measures. Most of the evidence that I've seen suggests that it measures a mixture of mathematical intellignece and education. You can teach people how to do better in an IQ test - it's not an inate quality. This suggests that the quality of education people recieve will effect their average IQ scores. Education in sub-Saharan Africa is by far the worst in the world and this is due to factors outside the control of individual Africans.

Second, all types of intelligence are always selected for in every society. The simple fact is that you need far more wits about you to survive in the poorest parts of the world than you do in the richest.

The real problem for sub-Saharan Africans is that most of them spend so much time surviving that they don't have any left over to create or educate themselves in the types of abstract problems posed in a typical IQ test.
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  #15  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:14 AM
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Mr.Sklansky,have you no shame? First the pope and "amazing randi" and now advertising a post like this. It's enough to drive me back to ebay. To quote Auntie Mame,"you need a little christmas." I expect better from this forum. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]
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  #16  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:14 AM
Peter666 Peter666 is offline
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Why call the OP's OP a moron? It is obvious there are differences between the races that are genetic and not merely socio-economic, just like there are obvious psychological differences between men and women. The proportion of black athletes to white or asian athletes is disproportionate according to population. That is racism and that is also true.

As long as everyone of any race has the opportunity to make use of their particular talent, then there is no problem.

Calling a person a "moron" for bringing up race just shows that you have been conditioned by society to think and act that way. It is the politically correct thing to do when any issue of race is brought up.
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  #17  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:26 AM
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Mostly fair comment Acorns. Certainly the point that IQ testing is only one type of measure of human performance is very valid. As for IQ testing being a product of education - yes, a little bit even though it's theoretically education neutral. But really not that much. I believe 10 points is about the max swing education can provide.

That all types of intelligence and indeed human qualities generally are selected for in every environment is also true - but the stress given to each certainly varies. In the case of sub-Saharan Africa, it makes sense that attributes like physical agility, eyesight etc would be selected for the potential to solve differential equations.

All I was really getting at is that these IQ performances Phil was referencing are products of environment and circumstance, as oppose to anything inherent to race.
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  #18  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:28 AM
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That's clearly the case is contemporary society.

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This is very wrong and goes against the accepted wisdom. Dumb people have more kids, and have for a long time. See this reference - and there are many other more credible ones that I have read.

http://www.eugenics.net/papers/Intelfert.html

"This paper reports the results of the first analysis of the relationship between intelligence and completed fertility (as well as partially completed fertility) in the United States which employs a large, representative sample of the population. The major finding is that the relationship has been predominantly negative from 1912 to 1982."

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Interbreeding, what's your evidence of that? Would test participants of mixed race qualify for these kind of studies on race related IQ? I don't know the answer to that - but I'm guessing not.

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These aren't race related tests. They're tests for the military, school, etc where race is reported as a statistic along with other information.

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Again this is not an issue of race it's an issue of environment. If you visit sub-saharan africa you'll see exactly why IQ is not highly valued. Black Americans/Europeans etc do not live in Africa. If a high IQ is attractive, and a gap is present as a result of that history, it will close with or without interbreeding.

[/ QUOTE ] You have a flawed understanding of reproduction in modern times.

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And just as a voice of reason, the gap isn't exactly very big as it is, and there's plenty crossover.

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The gap between 100 and 85 IQ is massive in modern society. An IQ this low makes you incapable of holding many middle class jobs, running a business, going to college, adequately planning for your future, educating your kids, or finding creative solutions to your social or economic difficulties. Let alone excelling in those endeavours. Why do you think there's so much crime amongst this race? Poverty alone doesn't account for it, not any more.

There is some crossover. But you generally need a reasonable IQ to be successful in modern life, and less than 15% of blacks have even an average white IQ. Such a large population of semi-retarded individuals (50% below 85) results in cultural and family problems as well, such as gangs, drugs, and seeing violence as a solution to problems.
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  #19  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:29 AM
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Why call the OP's OP a moron? It is obvious there are differences between the races that are genetic and not merely socio-economic, just like there are obvious psychological differences between men and women. The proportion of black athletes to white or asian athletes is disproportionate according to population. That is racism and that is also true.

As long as everyone of any race has the opportunity to make use of their particular talent, then there is no problem.

Calling a person a "moron" for bringing up race just shows that you have been conditioned by society to think and act that way. It is the politically correct thing to do when any issue of race is brought up.

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I didn't call him a moron for bringing up race! Or for referencing genetic differences between races. I called him a moron for saying blacks 'bred like rabbits' and were 'on the borderline of retardation'. Which is frankly offensive.
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  #20  
Old 12-20-2005, 06:33 AM
Chairman Wood Chairman Wood is offline
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I'm convinced they don't have the brain capacity to survive and contribute positively in modern civilisation. Despite many years and government efforts, the SAT scores of a certain race remain shockingly low. They are on the border of retardation. Even the elite of this race fail to excel.

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Obviously HE is not the only example but just the one that came quickest to mind. I have tons of respect for the people of this forum but I am positive that this man, an old professor of mine, is more intelligent than 99.99% of the people that post here.
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